(central-heating) air in system

[JohnD]

brabus, can you post a pic showeing where the feed and Expansion pipe, and the Vent pipe, join onto the main circulating pipe, and also showing where the pump is in relation to them?

They ought all to be close together (but might not be)

The F&E should be 15mm and the Vent should be 22mm

A picture of the F&E tank showing the vent pipe bent over it might also be useful

 

[gas4you]

When I do a boiler change I always bring the system up to scratch and include this in my quote.

I have a disclaimer saying leaks in previous pipe work is not covered but will be fixed but chargeable.

I would have thought as the ov and f&e were directly related to the safe operating of the boiler then the installer should be liable.

 

[Onetap]

Where is this responsibility defined? Is it, like a great many things, only in your head?

In the law.
They buy a boiler, they want a working boiler.
If the new boiler is incompatible with the existing system ( which may have been installed for a coal-fired, open-vented, back boiler, or which may be full of black sludge) then you need to tell them, you need to modify the system to suit the new boiler and/or you need to secure a signed disclaimer that explains the problem and that they have declined to have it rectified.

You/We being competent tradesmen are expected to know these things and to advise the customer accordingly.
The customer is ignorant of these things, That is why he has employed a competent tradesman.

The installer cannot be held responsible for the entire installation simply when a boiler is changed as there are many aspects of it which are unknown ... Quality of hidden plumbing etc.

You are not responsible if, the day after you leave the property post boiler comissioning, the house is flooded due to a previously badly fitted compression fitting popping off ... Though I can understand why the customer may think that you are

The installer is held responsible.
Working pressure of an open-vented system, 0.5 bar.
Working pressure of a sealed system 2.0 bar, say.
So, knowing that, you'd pressure test the existing system, to 1.5x or 2x the working pressure (certainly more than the PRV setting), before fitting a new sealed system boiler.

You didn't pressure test it and a compression joint popped off?
The fitting was adequate for 0.5 bar. You changed the system, it is your responsibility. It is negligence. The liability for negligence is 15 years, or 5 years from the date to discocery of the defect.

If it were my house, I'd sue you.
You'd lose.

The sealed system keeps losing pressure? Your problem (unless a detailed disclaimer is obtained), the existing open-vented system was adequate.

 

[gas4you]

Very good post onetap. I agree with all but if a leak ocurred after 12 months then I don't think it the responsibility of the installer who changed the boiler.

I disclaim all existing pipe work and rads from faults in writing that the customer has to accept before work commences, but as previously said I would expect to have to correct incompatable pipe work configurations during the install, or if I was stupid enough to miss them at a later date under warranty.

When I pressure test I always air test to 3.5 bar so I know the prv should blow before my pipe work

 

[megawatt]

Onetap wrote:

You didn't pressure test it and a compression joint popped off? The fitting was adequate for 0.5 bar. You changed the system, it is your responsibility. It is negligence. The liability for negligence is 15 years, or 5 years from the date to discocery of the defect.

Very emotional response Onetap but also complete nonsense.

Incompetence it may be but to be negligent the act or omission must be intententional ... extremely difficult to prove and very rarely true.

A degree of common sense is required ... You cannot be held responsible for aspects of an installation to which you could not reasonably be expected to have foreknowledge. In the plumbing world (or electrics) this means those parts of the installation which are, by their very nature, unknown to you ... The pipework under the floor, the wiring in cavities and conduits etc.

All you are expected to do is to take reasonable steps to ensure that the installation is fit for the new purpose ... Pressure checks etc. If the inevitable act of God happens afterwards it really is not the installers responsibility and I'm surprised that you would think that it is.

Next time I want my house re-plumbed I'll get you in to do something minor and then sue you for the rest

 

[Onetap]

Very emotional response Onetap but also complete nonsense.

Not even slightly emotional; straight facts I fear.

A degree of common sense is required ... You cannot be held responsible for aspects of an installation to which you could not reasonably be expected to have foreknowledge. In the plumbing world (or electrics) this means those parts of the installation which are, by their very nature, unknown to you ... The pipework under the floor, the wiring in cavities and conduits etc.

Yeah, so an electrician fits a new 9 kW (or whatever they are) shower, can he assume that an existing cable that supplied a 5kW shower is adaequate for the new load?

No?

So what's the difference?

An existing pipe has operated at 0.5 bar, so can you then assume that it is suitable for 2 bar, or 3.5 bar?

All you are expected to do is to take reasonable steps to ensure that the installation is fit for the new purpose ... Pressure checks etc. If the inevitable act of God happens afterwards it really is not the installers responsibility and I'm surprised that you would think that it is.

Pressure checks? Is that not what I've been ranting on about? You pressure test it at 4 bar, you can be confident it will work at 3 bar.

If it fails and it hasn't been pressure tested, it is not an 'act of God'. It is the forseeable and avoidable result of negligence.

And no, I won't be re-plumbing your house. I might offer expert testimony when you flood out another one.

 

[megawatt]

Stop ranting for a minute Onetap and try reading what I'm writing as you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what is necessary to satisfy yourself (as the installer) that the installation is to the best of your knowledge fit for the new boiler installation.

What I am saying ... now read this bit carefully ... is that, even if you have done everything by the book, s h i t e happens and if it does you as the installer are not responsible provided you are able to demonstrate that you acted reasonably.

If you have acted reasonably then you will not be considered incompetent and certainly not negligent.

In your shower example BTW I would replace the circuit.

MW

 

[Softus]

Where is this responsibility defined? Is it, like a great many things, only in your head?

In the law.

Specifically, which law would that be?

The liability for negligence is 15 years, or 5 years from the date to discocery of the defect.

Again, where is this defined?
____________________

Edited the wrong post - oops

 

[Onetap]

When I pressure test I always air test to 3.5 bar so I know the prv should blow before my pipe work

Then you're a bloody idiot.

 

[megawatt]

gas4you wrote:

When I pressure test I always air test to 3.5 bar so I know the prv should blow before my pipe work

Onetap replied:

Then you're a b****y idiot.

I'm a little puzzled Onetap as earlier you wrote ...

Working pressure of an open-vented system, 0.5 bar.
Working pressure of a sealed system 2.0 bar, say.
So, knowing that, you'd pressure test the existing system, to 1.5x or 2x the working pressure (certainly more than the PRV setting), before fitting a new sealed system boiler.

So, are you a b****y idiot also, or perhaps a little hypoctitical (or both) or have I missed something?

MW

 

[megawatt]

You also said ...

Pressure checks? Is that not what I've been ranting on about? You pressure test it at 4 bar, you can be confident it will work at 3 bar.

 

[Softus]

megawatt, I suspect that Onetap is referring to an air test at 3.5 bar.

This would be very dangourous, therefore anyone doing it would be a blo0dy idiot.

 

[Onetap]

Stop ranting for a minute Onetap and try reading what I'm writing as you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what is necessary to satisfy yourself (as the installer) that the installation is to the best of your knowledge fit for the new boiler installation.

What I am saying ... now read this bit carefully ... is that, even if you have done everything by the book, s h i t e happens and if it does you as the installer are not responsible provided you are able to demonstrate that you acted reasonably.
MW

That is what you are saying now.
It is not the same as what you were saying previously.
It seems that you have realised you were mistaken.

What you said previously was ;

You are not responsible if, the day after you leave the property post boiler comissioning, the house is flooded due to a previously badly fitted compression fitting popping off.

I replied to that specific example; the installer would be liable.
Any competent installer would have anticipated that problem.

Again, going back to Agile's post, which started this discussion;

The obvious question is what do the installers say about this?

When replacing the boiler they should have identified any problems with the existing system. Thats indicated by considerable sludge.
Tony

A competent installer would have realised from the presence of sludge, the fact that the system needed bleeding regularly, and the fact that the boiler was knackered (maybe due to local over-heating and failure of the heat exchanger) that there was a corrosion problem with the existing system which would affect his new boiler.

He would have to correct that problem (although I think it would be chargeable) by re-arranging the OV &CF, powerflushing and/or installing a complete new system. You should forewarn the customer. Only a complete idiot would fit a new combi, with BPHXs, but it happens regularly.

See the Wikipedia article about negligence;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

 

[Agile]

I have to agree with Softus in this instance Tony.

The installer cannot be held responsible for the entire installation simply when a boiler is changed as there are many aspects of it which are unknown ... Quality of hidden plumbing etc.

You are not responsible if, the day after you leave the property post boiler comissioning, the house is flooded due to a previously badly fitted compression fitting popping off ... Though I can understand why the customer may think that you are

I hope you are not taking that stance because you are in the same county as the OP ?

Whilst the replacement boiler installer cannot be responsible for the "entire installation" he clearly has a professional responsibility to identify any obvious defects and include fixing them in his quote.

Any sludge related problem is a clear example. Sludge must be removed before fitting a new boiler and the cause of the sludge build up identified and sorted out.

Tony

 

[Softus]

Where is this responsibility defined? Is it, like a great many things, only in your head?

In the law.

Specifically, which law would that be?

The liability for negligence is 15 years, or 5 years from the date to discocery of the defect.

Again, where is this defined?

See the Wikipedia article about negligence;
<A Hyperlink to a Wiki site>