Change of Use from Amenity to Residential - HELP!!

Crossed posts there.

Taking a very quick scan over that document it seems the examples given had an element of public access/public domain. I would have thought that you could put forward an argument that your front garden is private amenity space therefore a change of use application is not required but a chat with a planning consultant would be a good idea.
 
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I am at a complete loss - employing someone with more expertise is going to cost us, and probably more than the fence will cost! Such a frustrating and complex situation!
 
Well if you own the land maybe you can use PD rights to put up boundary treatments- whatever the land is classed as. That's a 2 metre high treatment, or one metre high if its alongside the pavement.

If you want to keep it low key maybe run a 2m high fence from the front corner of the house parallel with the pavement and then return down the side boundary. That would give you a bigger garden and leave an area in front of the fence to retain the 'amenity' value and to retain the green space facing on to the public realm.

A bit of a fudge but might get you what you want without a planning application..
 
Well if you own the land maybe you can use PD rights to put up boundary treatments- whatever the land is classed as. That's a 2 metre high treatment, or one metre high if its alongside the pavement.

If you want to keep it low key maybe run a 2m high fence from the front corner of the house parallel with the pavement and then return down the side boundary. That would give you a bigger garden and leave an area in front of the fence to retain the 'amenity' value and to retain the green space facing on to the public realm.

A bit of a fudge but might get you what you want without a planning application..

Did you have a look at the plans in the first post? I think this is what we have drawn up - might be misreading your post?
 
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I have now well and truly hit a brick wall:

From: CBC
Sent: 23 February 2017 15:46

No, rather basically, if I can walk on your land and walk my dog over its amenity land/public domain. If it was enclosed, it would be domestic garden.


I really cannot allocate any more time to this argument. I have dealt with tens of examples of this exact case in my career and assure you that you require a change of use of amenity land to private garden.


From: Lewis
Sent: 23 February 2017 15:38
To: CBC
Subject: RE: 125 Drakes Avenue, LB


Thank you for this, however, the examples given all the examples given have an element of public access/public domain?


Our front garden is private amenity space?
 
The important thing to remember is that this situation is not where someone wants to incorporate existing amenity land into their garden (eg the grass verge owned by the council next to a garden that the public had a right of way over), but is an existing privately owned garden that has somehow had a condition placed on it to keep it open plan.

The council planners when giving permission for the new housing estate have seemingly wanted to maintain an open plan estate. To do this they must have specified somewhere that the private gardens must not be enclosed and must remain open - ie amenity space for the enjoyment of others. This is not allowing public access, but maintaining a public view.

So this will be (muist be) either as a specific planning condition on the house planning permission, as a specific planning condition on the estate permission, or as a covenenant on the house deeds placed by the developer.

The point is, the council can just magic up a definition of land use. It must be specified and recorded.

Without any such conditions or covenants, then the land is just a bog standard garden and normal planning law applies to what you can do with it as such.

I would lodge a formal complaint against that **** at the council for that reply. And take the complaint as far as needed to get the answers you need.
 
Woody's advice seems solid.

Sorry hadn't looked at your plan but yes that's what I was describing.

I would be tempted to whack the fence up and see what happens. If it kicks off (which it may not do), and the council actually confirms what the situation is, and threatens formal action, you can always apply for retrospective planning permission.

Worst case scenario you may have to take the fence down at some point.
 
Well if you own the land maybe you can use PD rights to put up boundary treatments- whatever the land is classed as...

If its a relatively new estate, it might not have any PD rights. However, there would be no fee to apply for permission on something that would ordinarily have been permitted under PD, if the rights had been revoked as part of the planning permission.

I think the OP should press for details of the relevant condition or landscaping plan that identified this area of grass as amenity space. It's not an unreasonable request, and the plans for estates can be complex and involve multiple submissions, so online services can be very difficult to navigate to find a nugget of info such as thing. As professionals who have dealt with the application, the planners would be better enabled to find the relevant detail; something they should have been doing rather than cutting and pasting together a document of irrelevant vandalised alleyways being incorporated into gardens.

I don't know whether this would make for suitable material for a FOI request as technically the info should already be freely available, but there's no fee for asking.

There may be no such documented evidence, and thus the council may be casti the assertion based on what the "spirit of the design was supposed to communicate" about a feeling of openness and sense of place (blah blah), concepts which may have relevant lip service in the local planning policy. As such, it may entail having an adjudicated argument as to whether putting up a fence between your house corner and the neighbours garage corner makes the estate as a whole look more like an overbearing wall of red bricks. Try to see this from an inspector's viewpoint, though it's a relevant argument that your enclosed private space is much smaller than your neighbours due to the triangular nature of the garden. There is a minimum amount of private amenity space specified in most planning policies to ensure developers don't overcrowd land with houses by making postage stamp sized gardens. If your area is less than the minimum, and less than that enjoyed by neighbours, it's reasonable to argue for an increase. You're specifically disadvantaged by it being split into two small triangles by the nature of the construction

On the plan posted there is a large swathe of public open space nearby. The council officer really wouldn't need to bring his dog to **** on your front lawn, though it does seem the owner may have inherited some of the pet's attitudes :)


Last point; how well do you get on with the neighbours? Any scope for taking the fence down between the rear gardens and then both families enjoy a bigger area? Sure, there are plenty of things that could ruin this (pets, particularly untidy or boisterous football playing children..) but it works from time to time. I share a back garden and garage with my neighbour..
 
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I would be tempted to whack the fence up and see what happens. If it kicks off (which it may not do), and the council actually confirms what the situation is, and threatens formal action, you can always apply for retrospective planning permission.

Yes that may well be the most expedient way to get a definitive answer. And TBH, thats just what most people would do anyway.
 
I think my issue with that is the £5K we are spending to landscape behind where the fence is going, with decking and some paving etc - if I get asked to put the fence back, decking on the front lawn will just look odd!!
 
I think my issue with that is the £5K we are spending to landscape behind where the fence is going, with decking and some paving etc - if I get asked to put the fence back, decking on the front lawn will just look odd!!

That council officer has already said he is minded to approve it if you did apply. That would also apply for a retrospective application - but still no guarantee though.

But with appeals and what not, even in the worst case, you could get several years of enjoyment out of it.
 
I think my issue with that is the £5K we are spending to landscape behind where the fence is going, with decking and some paving etc - if I get asked to put the fence back, decking on the front lawn will just look odd!!

Now there's another thing you might need to ask for planning permission to install, if your PD rights have been confiscated

But with appeals and what not, even in the worst case, you could get several years of enjoyment out of it.

How long did Robert Fidler manage to stave off the demolition of that mock Tudor castle behind the hay bales? Poor sod.. He probably should have just kept adding to the hay bale circumference
 
Re the 5k- If you are going to go ahead- I would hold fire on the landscaping and just put the fence up.

Minimise outlay and risk. Landscaping could be done later on if the fence is established with no problems, or is regularised through a retrospective application.
 

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