Confessions on TV?????

[Stulz]

Yes I do agree with you Stulz,5 miles is no distance when traveling 600mph.But these troops were exposed.These were not harden combat troops.As I have said when you are in these waters you got to have your backs protected at all times.

Rommy, they had thier Backs watched, but an unfortunate bit of bad luck meant the Helicopter had to return to HMS Cornwall, and the backup Helicopter was being refueled having been the backup to a different crew who had returned safely.

You need to bear in mind that HMS Coventry is only a Frigate, she only carries two Lynx Helicopters from recollection and so they have to be used sparingly to maximise effective operations. In an ideal world there would be a couple of small helicopter carriers in the RN that could provide more effective operational cover, but the current Government scrapped the RN's plans for this type of vessel about 8 years ago.

With regards the hardened troops comment, I can assure you that without heavier weapons, any groupd of Marines or Soldiers in that situation would be very illadvised to fight if escape was not an option.

What is interesting here is that the RAF and the USAF both failed to spot the Iranian craft with their AWACS aircraft that regually patrol the area. I know from personal experience that there are at least two Hotels on station at any one time and these are always supported by Texaco's so that they are always able to remain on station.

The USAF provide the high level cover, usually cruising at about 10,000m+ as this gives them about a 150m radius of operations. The RAF, using Nimrods, usually fly at about 2500m as this gives them clearer radar images and allows them to spot the very small craft in the water, which the US Aircraft have difficulty seeing due to height and technology limitations. I am amazed that the press has not even asked this question!!

 

[rommy]

Hi sultz,you have confirmed what I have said. cornwall is just an frigate.Just 2 helicopters that have to be used sparingly. bad luck?No I think it was incompantency on the behalf of the government and the top brass.The only people to do this job in these trouble waters at this trouble times would be the Royal Marines, fully- equipped with a destroyer near by.
Or just have Ms becket,she would frighten them off.They would have thought the dead have risen.

 

[Stulz]

Rommy, I would wholeheartedly agree with Whitehall being to blame, I think it unfair to blame the Brass, although they are a convenient scapegoat, because they are faced with a bigger dilemna that the Commander on the ground. They have to make decisions that impact every member of the forces on the ground, whereas the local commander only makes those that affect his immidiate subordinates.

I used to blame the top brass for everything unitl I had an occasion to work alongside some as I rose in rank, then I realised that some of the unsavory and unwelcome decisions are not easily made, in fact they are agonised over with every possible solution looked at until they have exhausted every option. I would agree that perhaps not every member of the top brass is so diligent, but certainly the top brass of the Navy and the Marines would appear to be as they have very little resources and a lot of committments.

Of course bad decisions are made, even the best commander will be forced to make a bad decision on occasion when under stress, but the fault lies clearly with the Politicians and their constant interference with the MOD and the budget. Personally I think the Politicians should decide the budget, then let the MOD chiefs make the decisions as to how best to spend the cash and on what equipment is needed, that way when it goes horribly wrong, we all know exactly where the blame lies.

 

[tim west]

I wonder what sort of pressure they have been put under in the debriefing once back in britain about what to say to the media

 

[rommy]

Hi Tim,This has been an embarrassment for our government.I think they would want this forgotten about as quick as possible.
It has been a failure.I hope that our government learns from this.
They have to revise the training if captured.It's is easy to be brave when your in the comfort of your own home and say they should have resisted.
But I just felt that it did make our service personnel look weak and feeble.
I do blame the government in getting into this situation.

 

[tim west]

When governments play mind games then the public gets to see only their point of view. We get conditioned to accept what is fed to us.

 

[Moz]

Stulz
I find your comments quite disgraceful to say the least ......

we are not at war with Iran , so *we* being a Professional fighting force are adhereing to *the Rules of engagements*.......
they were taken hostage/illegally .....
they played the game an are now home with both countries trying to make it look like they have won .....lol...lol...lol..

The armed services fight wars , they dont get into *the politics*
If they did most serving lads wouldnt get out of their bivvies in Iraq now , an await for B'liar to fight it out ...
they are there as a Brit Fighting Force .........

just to add ...
I have served for HM as a stab ...

Chief dixy/bottle washer
1st Foot an Mouth Regt
Catterrick cookhouse
Strensall
York





lol

Im sure you must visit many Brit Squaddie Net forums ..???(not the MOD ones )

who will tell you they did everything correctly an above board , an did not shame their country whatsoever ....!

tbh
me in that sitrep ..lol
I would of been on that pray mat praying to Allah ..
if they wanted me to ....lol...lol...lol

can I add ...

If you visit Yank/septic forces forums ....lol...lol
Oh Dear ....
the general opinion
"They/brits are Traitors an should have fought too the death, so Bush can deploy a nuke sub in Iraqi waters .....
an bomb them *******s back too the stone age ..... "

so we Brits are Cowards an Traitors ....an thats our allies speaking ...lol...lol..lol..lol

bunch of friendly fire/murdering ****s

 

[Richardp]

They've been given special dispensation to sell their stories to the press, Why?
''Me thinks they dost protest too much'' It all smacks of propaganda.

 

[Softus]

A naive question: why does any of it matter?

In other words, what effect will the incident have on the long-term outcome for British troups in the Gulf?

 

[tim west]

A naive question: why does any of it matter?

In other words, what effect will the incident have on the long-term outcome for British troups in the Gulf?

I suppose it could make a difference if public opinion swings the government into some form of retributional action? Whether justified or not.

 

[Softus]

I can't see that ever happening - the public was very vocal when trying to stop TB going into the Gulf, but IMHO we're a war-mongering nation, and the government would never need to be encouraged to jump into its batmobile.

 

[bernardgreen]

Thanks for the info Stulz.This is a dangerous stretch of water and with the situation at the time with Iran,HMS cornwall should have been there, not 5 miles away.In these waters there can't be any cock ups.I would of thought that the top brass would of learnt this from the last lot of of marines that was taken by the Iranians.

I believe the water at the interception point was too shallow for the HNS Cornwall to operate safely.

Quite probably the Iranians were monitoring radio traffic, heard the Lynx was having to return and took the opportunity to snatch the lightly armed vessels while air cover was absent.

 

[empip]

Backed up with ...

It is said ... battleship Warspite ... West country built and dismantled ! Credited with longest range hit on moving target.. 26,000 yds (14.77 miles)... Suffered a fair few collisions with our own stuff too !

Then the sun set on the Brit Empire and the world commenced it's downhill slide.

 

[rommy]

I was against this war.I never trusted what Tony Blair said.Still we went to war with out of date body -armer.outer date patrol vehicles,designed in the 70's/80's for the streets of Northern Ireland.A war run by an incompetent lying government.

 

[tim west]

Unfortunately we now live in the era of misinformation and public coercion for governments to gain a political stranglehold on others.

The powerful tools of communication available have never been put to as effective use since the USSR were brainwashing their populace.

IMO the Iranians have played their best hand in the political game of poker in this particular situation and have not allowed Britain to get away with their manipulation of events. The truth will come out eventually.