conservatives are

[SirGalahad]

I'm sorry Kankerot, but I can accept very little of your arguments. You keep saying that you can't equate government income expenditure to personal finance, but the same principle applies. it just depends who's doing the financing, and what they're parameters are. At the end of the day, the same basic principle should apply to both - learnt to live within your means, and although you haven't been prepared to admit it, you are advocating raising borrowing to support the sort of society that you think is appropriate. You keep asking people to answer what sort of society they want, yet you shy away from answering the same question, or how you'd finance it prudently.

If I live beyond my means, that means I have to work harder, or to dig into my savings, but taking out a mortgage isn't living beyond my means, so I wonder if you rent, or you'd understand the principle.

Banks now have to lend prudently for mortgages (but they did get away with it with self certified mortgages) but they haven't been regulated to the same degree with credit cards; and I doubt if they will, because the government is using the banks to help fund growth in the economy.

Basically, you and I will never agree, so I think it's best to leave this one on a nice note

Doggit. Can you issue your own money? You can't but governments can. Also I suggest you read how money is created in the banking system, how fiat money works.

This is exactly why you are making the fallacy of income and expenditure.

Now everyone thinks I am advocating please do not think I am advocating reckless spending. The issue is way more complex. The timing of when you spend is important as well.

But doggit you did not live within your means - you bought a house with debt, that is not living within the stricture of only spending what you have.

Doggit you seem like a nice chap but on this you are wrong, please go an pick up a book on macroeconomics or learn more about government finance.

What is living beyond your means? Can you explain that.

 

[EFLImpudence]

But doggit you did not live within your means - you bought a house with debt, that is not living within the stricture of only spending what you have.

That's not the case.

He did not actually BUY a house. That's what they call it but it is not the case.
He wouldn't have been given a mortgage if he could not afford it and if he defaults it will be repossessed. Negative equity aside he will then not owe any money.

Also, there is the fact that his mortgage payments are likely less than the rent for an equivalent property.

 

[SirGalahad]

That's not the case.

He did not actually BUY a house. That's what they call it but it is not the case.
He wouldn't have been given a mortgage if he could not afford it and if he defaults it will be repossessed. Negative equity aside he will then not owe any money.

Also, there is the fact that his mortgage payments are likely less than the rent for an equivalent property.

What is living within your means?

I am trying to work out what Doggit means by this.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Not wishing to put words in his mouth -

I presume, simply, he means not spending more than your income.

Although this may, of course, include payments for loans, credit and mortgages.

The same as the country ???

 

[SirGalahad]

That's not the case.

He did not actually BUY a house. That's what they call it but it is not the case.
He wouldn't have been given a mortgage if he could not afford it and if he defaults it will be repossessed. Negative equity aside he will then not owe any money.

Also, there is the fact that his mortgage payments are likely less than the rent for an equivalent property.

So what did he buy then? The mortgage is a debt secured on the property. The property is in the name of the owner.

You could raise debt securing it against assets you hold with the bank having a lien over those assets.

What do you mean not owe money?

What has the mortgage payments and rent have to do with anything?

 

[SirGalahad]

Not wishing to put words in his mouth -

I presume, simply, he means not spending more than your income.

Although this may, of course, include payments for loans, credit and mortgages.

The same as the country ???

If you spend £500k to buy a home and your income is £100k a year. Are you spending more than your income?

 

[EFLImpudence]

So what did he buy then? The mortgage is a debt secured on the property. The property is in the name of the owner.

Yes, but that's part of the con - only your equity is yours. The rest is really owned by the lender.

You could raise debt securing it against assets you hold with the bank having a lien over those assets.

Only for part of your equity.

What do you mean not owe money?

Well, if your house is repossessed, that (negative equity aside) will repay the remainder of your mortgage.
If lucky, you may even get some money back.

What has the mortgage payments and rent have to do with anything?

I just mentioned the fact that when people have their house repossessed, they may have to pay more to rent somewhere to live.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If you spend £500k to buy a home and your income is £100k a year. Are you spending more than your income?

What do you mean by 'spend'?

Unless you have been saving for a very long time, you cannot spend £500k.

 

[Brigadier]

In most peoples' language, understanding, and reckoning, "living within your means" means being able to service your (usually, monthly) outgoings. Mortgage / rent, or no mortgage / rent.

 

[noseall]

I don't live beyond my means. I have zero debt other than what I owe utilities etc.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

I am more or less, of the 'debt-free' type except that I will occasionally use a credit card for simplicity, expediency, added benefit, etc. But I do always clear the balance each month.
Similarly, I have a sizable interest-free overdraft facility which I very occasionally use. Again the overdraft is cleared each month.

If/when I am making a larger than average purchase which requires some thought and eventual selection, once that selection has been made, if an interest-free option is available, I may exploit it. But it is never the basis of my selection of product/service.

So I do not have a 'fear' of debt, but I do leverage it sensibly.

 

[SirGalahad]

In most peoples' language, understanding, and reckoning, "living within your means" means being able to service your (usually, monthly) outgoings. Mortgage / rent, or no mortgage / rent.

So being in debt is living within your means - if you can service it. Then why is it Doggitt doesnt seem to understand that governments do this - ie take on debt. There is a separate issue and where money should be spent -but not on the issue of borrowing - because thats what people do when they buy homes.

 

[Brigadier]

I don't live beyond my means. I have zero debt other than what I owe utilities etc.

Me neither. I finish each month (slightly) better off than I started it. That's all I can do, really.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There is a separate issue and where money should be spent -but not on the issue of borrowing - because thats what people do when they buy homes.

I do wish you wouldn't keep using this spurious example of mortgages; it is not the same as actually borrowing money to buy goods.

If the country can't service its debt, will someone clear it by repossessing Britain and returning the surplus?

 

[Doggit]

So being in debt is living within your means - if you can service it

And that's what I've tried to point out to you Kankerot, It's not being in debt that's the issue, it's being able to service it without causing other problems that's the real issue to considered. Every debt has to be serviced, and ideally paid back at some point, and the more you have to pay to service that debt, the less there is to go round for other services. If you persoanlly don't spend more than you earn, then why should a government. You keep failing to say what sort of society you want, and you fail to mention how you would fund that society, so it seesm that it's okay to have a nicely supported society, and don't worry about how it gets funded.