Converting batten lamp holder to IPX4 light

[DiyNutJob]

The batten lamp holder in an en suit shower room ceiling was installed by the house builder around 2000. I imagine it met the regulations then. In a recent EICR assessment, I was told that the light has to be IPX4. Is the assessor being over-strict in the assessment? Is the light fittings a borderline case in meeting the regulations? I don't imagine the house builder would have gone too far wrong.

I assumed the wiring for the batten holder would be straight forward. When I opened it up, I was shocked to find almost a nuclear power station there. What is the best way for me to convert this to IPX4. Are there any particular light fittings that would work with the wiring junction as is?

I paid a lot of money for a cheap-ass (americanism is the most apt in this case) amazon ceiling light. It's money straight in the bin. Does anyone see any possibility of using this? I am absolutely not hopeful.

 

[foxhole]

Can’t see if new light fitting is suitable you have only shown the ceiling side . If you can get the existing wiring up into the ceiling you can connect it.
Additional wires may be feeding extractor fan?

 

[DiyNutJob]

Yes, you could be right the extra wires are for the fan. The piece of junk amazon unit has a foam strip on the perimeter that gives it a little space but not enough to accommodate the wire junction. On the other side are just LED chips. Getting all the wires to the other side will block some of the LEDS.

 

[RandomGrinch]

As @foxhole suggests, if you can make a slightly larger hole in the ceiling, the wiring and a connector can be pushed up into the ceiling void.
I've used a few of these...

Greenbrook Lighting Connector

A 3-pole 20A lighting connector for quick and efficient fitting of multiple downlights and lighting fixtures. With its simple lock-and-release system, it’s so easy to wire up and connect – and just as easy to disconnect when maintenance is required. Suitable for a wide variety of connecting...

www.toolstation.com

 

[DiyNutJob]

Are there any regulations about size of the hole in the ceiling. I don't know for sure, but I think the existing hole is just big enough for the wires to come through. These are solid core wires and are stiff. I will detach the junction from the ceiling and take more pics when I am at the property next.

 

[DiyNutJob]

Here's a clearer picture of the wires.

 

[mikeyd]

That's not a "I was shocked to find almost a nuclear power station there." situation.
It's actually an (in my opinion) well wired ceiling rose.

As others said above, the switched live feeds something else such as a fan.

Normally, to get rid of a bathroom ceiling rose, all those wires would be put in a junction box and shoved up through the hole in the ceiling, leaving just the (outside blue and brown) feed to the lamp.

However, can you give us a bigger picture? How high is the ceiling and how big is the room? And is this rose above a bath or shower?

 

[DiyNutJob]

I will get more pics when I am at the property. I think the assessor is deliberately making it difficult. The house builder wouldn't have gotten it wrong. It's a tiny room. The light is above the basin. The shower enclosure is next to the basin.

If I want to convert the rose into a junction box, which box is best for all these wires?

The best solution is a light fitting that has some space, like this one:

 

[ericmark]

IPX4 = Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect, utilizing either: a) an oscillating fixture or b) A spray nozzle with no shield. Test a) is conducted for 10 minutes. b) is conducted (without shield) for 5 minutes minimum.

And 2.25 meters from floor level is the limit to the requirement, and from edge of bath or shower 0.6 meters, question one is if the lamp is inside the zone to start with and two are you sure it is not IPX4 anyway?

The little bit of rubber on this lamp that seals the bulb to the holder is enough to allow these lights to be used outside, with things like Class II you need a sticker saying class II but with IPX4 it is simply a description of the ability of the device resist the moisture for 10 minutes, and I would question if a pendent does not comply anyway.

OK my old house the bath was moved and as a result the pendent is not outside the zone, and to be frank when there was only a bath in real terms there was no problem, it was only when a shower was added that there was any kind of problem.

It is a problem for any inspector, if he does not highlight some thing, and latter some one does, then he has to show why he felt there was no problem, but he has three options to select from, dangerous, potentially dangerous, and improvement recommended, the does not comply with current edition of BS 7671 (code 4) has been removed, so he needs to show the not being IPX4 is potentially dangerous, I don't think that can be shown in most cases.

 

[DiyNutJob]

It's not a pendant. It's a straight batten lamp holder with BC connector. If I were to direct the shower spray towards it, the bulb would short circuit. I remain convinced it's a boarder-line case or the house builder would not have done it this way.

 

[bernardgreen]

he little bit of rubber on this lamp that seals the bulb to the holder is enough to allow these lights to be used outside

These festoon holders require that a lamp ( bulb ) of the correct shape is fitted to maintain the IP rating. ( the lamp can be non functional )

 

[ericmark]

If I were to direct the shower spray towards it, the bulb would short circuit.

I know I could wash the ceiling in my late mothers wet room, with the power shower fitted, but that is not some thing I would normally do, and the regulations do not require one to protect against doing some thing daft, in most bathrooms the floor is not sealed with a drain and one would normally try to keep the floor reasonable dry.

It's a straight batten lamp holder with BC connector.

A batten lamp holder would not get much water in when sprayed from below the only way it is likely to get water in it is with a leak from above. But this does not look like a batten lamp holder, it looks like a ceiling rose.

So we are looking for potential danger, not light failure, and if the bulb short circuited then the overload would trip so no danger, it is unlikely to short circuit, more likely a resistive path to earth, in which case the RCD would open, it is a very low danger of going on fire, and one would have to be silly to grab hold of a wet bulb. So the only danger is loosing light when it trips, and as pointed out to me many times we can get power cuts at any time, the worry is a combination of getting a shock and loosing light at the same time, and for that to happen need to do some thing silly.

I have a pendent lamp in my own bathroom, and I see no danger as too far from the bath, OK in a room with sloping ceiling so lower than normal I can see a problem. Technically my ceilings are too low for a pendent lamp, it would need a very short flex for fitting to be over 2.3 meters from the floor, but the EICR is looking for potential danger not strict compliance with regulations, and I can't see how even if only 2 meters from floor there would be a problem, yes we could not today fit a pendent lamp and sign to say it is compliant, but neither in most cases can we say if we can walk under the lamp without bumping into it, that is is potential dangerous.

Wall lights OK different issue, but I would not say a pendent lamp which you can walk under without bumping your head on it is a potential danger.

 

[DiyNutJob]

As expected the center of the lamp holder is exactly 60cm to the shower enclosure door. I presume this allows interpretation either way of if it is compliant. The ceiling is 2m35cm from the floor.

The hole in the ceiling is exactly the size of the cables. The ceiling is made from reddish plaster on rock hard concrete (slab?) Beyond the slab is the cavity. Enlarging the hole could be challenging and would need diamond drill bits. All I have are small dremel diamond bits that might work but haven't tried. Making a bigger hole compromises fire and sound proofing for the flat. Suggestions?

 

[EFLImpudence]

What is your objective now?

There is no need to alter the ceiling.



You can either get an IPX4 light of any depth that has room for the wires - it won't need much if all pressed flat to the ceiling -

OR

you can get any (old) light that is a maximum of 10cm. deep and has room for the wires.

 

[DiyNutJob]

I am happy to get an IPX4 light if I know which one to get that has the needed space. Do you have a recommendation?

Well, the existing old light should be OK, but the assessor said IPX4 is required.