Corgi

[confidentincompetent]

http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_gas_law/house-owner.asp#changestoregs

You have not said what your point is. However, I note the following from the above web site:

A significant amount of gas work carried out by non-registered installers has been found to have serious safety defects. That's why, by law, all installation businesses carrying out gas work for you must be registered with CORGI.

This reflects the fact that it is illegal for a business to carry out gas work without being CORGI registered, but not so for an individual when working on his own house.

?

 

[confidentincompetent]

It might be that you don't realise that guidance notes, and explanatory notes, published by the ODPM, are not law, and that some of them are even wrong with respect to the law. For this reason I don't rely on them, don't refer to them, and don't quote from them.

Twist an shout

 

[confidentincompetent]

Can you show me where it states that an unqualified, non corgi, diy householder can do gas fitting in his own home WITHout building control.

There is no legal way for a DIY person to install a gas boiler, in the UK, without first notifying the LABC.







quote]
Glad you agree with my dunce like stupidity Now.

 

[Softus]

The problem is that we (society, law-makers) have only agreed a method for the demonstration of competence for the tradesperson.

Right, yes, sorry, stupid of me. However, I realise that I've been here before, in thought, and this is how it went:

There's a theme (amongst many themes) running through the laws of this country, which is to protect human rights from the misdemeanors or negligence of others.

With gas, there's an immediacy of effect following cause. Gas joints, once securely made, have no tendency to spontaneously leak. Also, it's a doddle to check, after any work, that no gas is escaping, and that combustion products don't go where they shouldn't. Therefore, a householder who works on his own boiler, or other gas appliance, is quite unlikely to hurt anyone other than himself and his immediate family. Grey and woolly, I know, but go with me for a bit.

With electricity, an error can lead to a latent fault lying dormant long enough for a house to change ownership, thus inadequately tested electrical work can be a danger to those who had no vested interest in the original work. There is, of course, a threshold, below which a job is so trivial that there no latent fault can be introduced - changing a light bulb is an example of such a job.

I'm not privy to the debate that led to the introduction of the Part P regulations, but I suspect it's no coincidence that the Gas Regulations are as lax as they are, and the Part P Regulations as tight. Maybe gas will catch up - I don't know, and I don't claim to know - this is as close to chewing the cud as I'm likely to get.

I also suspect that this is why the morals and merits of seatbelt-wearing were once so hotly contested. For example, it makes sense, to me, to insist that all rear passengers must wear belts, in order to prevent them head-butting the front passengers to death in the event of a sudden deceleration. However, the front passengers can damage only themselves (in addition to damaging the public bank balance), which is why some of us (but not me) argue that they should be allowed to hurt/maim/kill themselves.

It strikes me that the law has to find the fine balance between infringing personal liberties, protecting the right to do whatever we like inside our own homes, and protecting the right of everyone else not to be poisoned, blown up or electrocuted as a result of our incompetence.

 

[Softus]

http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_gas_law/house-owner.asp#changestoregs

You have not said what your point is. However, I note the following from the above web site:

A significant amount of gas work carried out by non-registered installers has been found to have serious safety defects. That's why, by law, all installation businesses carrying out gas work for you must be registered with CORGI.

This reflects the fact that it is illegal for a business to carry out gas work without being CORGI registered, but not so for an individual when working on his own house.

?

That's very nice - the way you've laid out that quote is just great.

Do you also have a point to make, or a question to ask?

 

[Softus]

Twist an shout

Can you find somewhere where he has relied on, referred to or quoted from them? (except to prove his first two comments about their relationship to the law and their accuracy - I guess he's allowed to do that....)

 

[Softus]

Can you show me where it states that an unqualified, non corgi, diy householder can do gas fitting in his own home WITHout building control.

There is no legal way for a DIY person to install a gas boiler, in the UK, without first notifying the LABC.

Glad you agree with my dunce like stupidity Now.

If you think that asking a question to which the answer is obvious, and already known to you, constitutes a clever trap, then you're pathetically mistaken and out of your depth.

For some time your posts have been leading nowhere, but have merely been childishly and illiterately poking fun. Unless you have something useful to say, I won't be replying to any more of them.

 

[BobProperty]

Some further points. Softus, I understand your criticism of "prove competence" now as you, I believe, are saying that to "prove" in a court of law is absolute. Therefore to "prove competence" would require perfection or near perfection in every case, a standard which would be impossible to achieve.
I think with electricity and gas that both are capable of being immediately dangerous e.g. leaks for gas, live cables for electricity. But both are also capable of delayed damage. e.g. incomplete combustion producing CO in the case of gas, undersized wiring overheating causing fires in the case of electricity. It is more that the drafting of laws is better in some areas than others, and perhaps the drafting is getting better (although it is not a linear improvement) .

 

[Softus]

Some further points. Softus, I understand your criticism of "prove competence" now as you, I believe, are saying that to "prove" in a court of law is absolute. Therefore to "prove competence" would require perfection or near perfection in every case, a standard which would be impossible to achieve.

Precisely my thinking

I think with electricity and gas that both are capable of being immediately dangerous e.g. leaks for gas, live cables for electricity. But both are also capable of delayed damage...

You've made some good points, and I'm happy to go with your thinking, since my thoughts were nothing more than opinions and wonderings, and certainly not in my more familiar haunting ground of presenting facts and advice based on 1st hand experience.

This is a rare topic, in my recent experience, because we've ended up in accord, and with a common understanding. (I'm ignoring what amounts to background noise from a.n.other).

It would be nice if they were all like this, so I'll look out for your postings on other topics. Merry Christmas BobProperty, and to your family. In fact, Merry Christmas to one and all!

 

[confidentincompetent]

Can you show me where it states that an unqualified, non corgi, diy householder can do gas fitting in his own home WITHout building control.

There is no legal way for a DIY person to install a gas boiler, in the UK, without first notifying the LABC.

Glad you agree with my dunce like stupidity Now.

If you think that asking a question to which the answer is obvious, and already known to you, constitutes a clever trap, then you're pathetically mistaken and out of your depth.

For some time your posts have been leading nowhere, but have merely been childishly and illiterately poking fun. Unless you have something useful to say, I won't be replying to any more of them.

Yeah blahh blahh. anyone reading this thread from beginning will see that you scoffed at my suggestion that building control is required for diy and you got so incenced at my attempts to say otherwise you completely lost it. Anyhow youv'e done a U turn and your now informing others that buildings control is required (in your usual pompous way).Its you that did all the childish bits btw. read back .

 

[Softus]

If I were incensed.... believe me, you'd know about it. Now go away.

 

[petewood]

If I were incensed.... believe me, you'd know about it. .

Would you be exuding aromatic smoke?

 

[Softus]

Would you be exuding aromatic smoke?

 

[Moz]

Can I just add as an ex Corgi gas fitter

these points from the gas regs
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Gas Safety(Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

Approved Code of Practise and Guidance

These Regulations ,

*
require work on a gas fitting to be carried out by a competant person :and employers of gas fitting operatives,together with other specified persons (eg those in control of work such as building operatives ),to ensure that the operatives have the required competance for the work being done .Employers of persons carring out work on gasfittings/service pipework and selfemployed persons doing this work are required to be a member of a class of persons approved by HSE:at the time of publications of this ACOP/Guidancethis means that they should be registered with the Council for Registered Gas Installers (CORGI)
(Regulation3):

*
require any employer or self employed requiring work to be done on a gasfitting ,or in control to any extent of such work (eg a contractor ),to take steps to ensure the person doing the work is ,or is employed by a member of a class of persons approved by the HSE(Regulation 4):

*Specify requirements for gastightness testing after work has been done on installation pipework,and for purging/sealing of such pipework in cases where gas is being supplied to the premises where it is installed,an where gas is not being so supplied(Regulation22):

Terms used in Regulations and ACOP/Guidance

*The terms "Gas Installer",an "Installer"are not defined in GSIUR but are used in the Guidance an ACOP:in this context they mean "ANY PERSON" who carries out work on a Gas system or Gas storage vessel.This includes (but is not restricted to)ANY PERSON who installs ,services ,maintains,an connects,re-connects,disconnects,removes or repairs Gas appliances or other fittings whether they are an employer,employee,self employed or working on their own behalf,ie in "Do-It-Yourself" activity.

Qualifications an supervision

Regulation 47

Competance depends on a combination of training an experiance.The HSC ACOP "Standards of Training in Safe Gas Installation "provides guidance both on the scope of training an the need for assessments/re-assessments of Gas Fitting Operatives (see Appendix4).Although failure to observe any provision of the code is not in itself an offense,that failure may be taken by a court in criminal proceedings as proof that a person has contravened a particular regulation .The ACOP extends to Gas installation work at premises excluded from these regulations but subject to HSW Act section 2 and 3 - see paragragh42 an appendix3. The Nationally Accredited Certification scheme (NACs) introduced in January 1998requires Individual Gas Fitting Operatives to have their COMPETANCE
assesed at five yearly intervals by The United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS)
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I think that above answers all questions ..

 

[Softus]

I think that above answers all questions ..

Certainly most of them, and very clearly and helpfully too

For my benefit, do you know where, online, I might find the ACOP document that you refer to?

Also, for someone else's benefit, what is your understanding on the requirements of the Building Regulations, on the context of gas?