Design Current and Maximum length and Radials.

the load is usually distributed along the cable, and the total length for volt drop can be significantly longer.


I understand VD is not the only factor. Zs will be the decisive value, i presume.
Im sorry, I Don't get how can the total length for volt drop be longer.
The first (Radial) socket will take the most load, as any load further loads downstream will take less

So to get a longer volt drop, we would need to keep changing the design current.

He is my drawing hope it makes some sense.

But what is the Ib - That has to be the current you reasonably expected the circuit to use.
We are not doing individual volt drops from socket to socket.
We need one value, and as such I don't see how the lengths can be longer.

Thanks for your time and patience.

 
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BS 7671 Fig 15 B
Historically, the floor area served has been limited to 50m2

Just re looked its in BS7671.


I understand it has to be designed to its individual use, but this is simple standard circuits.
You would think they would be some guidance, which I guess is what the OSG tries to do. Such as what IS the design current.
Everything seems to be an educated guess, which I get, how the hell are you going to know what someone plugs into a bunch of sockets.

Ultimately the cable is protected by the fuse, so the cable will be OK.

But if I want to put in a 2.5mm radial on a 20A MCB, What would be its maximum length.
Posts to this thread suggest volt drop is not critical, but as I can see, we have to use Zs, volt drop and maximum demand as out limiters.


For other circuits such as socket outlets and lighting, the load is usually distributed along the cable, and the total length for volt drop can be significantly longer.

If some one could explain this further, i'd be very grateful.

Thanks again for you help.
 
Thanks EFLI
Yes I can see that

A 20m and a 30m Tree. That would certainly sort out the volt drop.

In that situation I would prefer two radials.
Its just a theoretical question on length

And I always try to avoid 3 cables in a socket as much as possible.
 
BS 7671 Fig 15 B
Historically, the floor area served has been limited to 50m2
Just re looked its in BS7671.
Appendix 15 is informative; not a regulation; and not everything that is allowed is shown.
Is a room 7m x 7m the same as three rooms 6m x 3m in a row?

I understand it has to be designed to its individual use, but this is simple standard circuits.
You would think they would be some guidance, which I guess is what the OSG tries to do. Such as what IS the design current.
Everything seems to be an educated guess, which I get, how the hell are you going to know what someone plugs into a bunch of sockets.
You are not - so, it is virtually irrelevant. That you might have many sockets does not mean people will use more appliances. If you had five more sockets in your kitchen, would you use more than you do now?
As John said, the alternative is to have only two sockets on 32A circuits or one socket on 20A circuits.

Ultimately the cable is protected by the fuse, so the cable will be OK.
Exactly.

But if I want to put in a 2.5mm radial on a 20A MCB, What would be its maximum length.
Posts to this thread suggest volt drop is not critical, but as I can see, we have to use Zs, volt drop and maximum demand as out limiters.
Ok,

so Zs is dependent on Ze,
VD, or the effect of it, is dependent on the actual voltage and the appliances.
Maximum demand is dependent on the MCB and/or location, kitchen or bedrooms,
so, there isn't a maximum length.
If you cannot meet the maximum values, use branches on the circuit.

Design for the situation.
 
In that situation I would prefer two radials.
Ok, but it depends on the situation - three bedrooms?

Its just a theoretical question on length
Then there can be only a theoretical answer.

And I always try to avoid 3 cables in a socket as much as possible.
Ok, but there is no reason to do that over any of the other options..
 
... The first (Radial) socket will take the most load, as any load further loads downstream will take less ... So to get a longer volt drop, we would need to keep changing the design current.
He is my drawing hope it makes some sense.
But what is the Ib - That has to be the current you reasonably expected the circuit to use. ... We need one value, and as such I don't see how the lengths can be longer.
I think that your diagram is rather confused/confusing, so I'll attempt to explain a bit in prose.

As you say, with a multi-socket sockets circuit, the 'design current' (Ib) has to be an intelligent guess as to what loads are 'likely' to be applied to the circuit (and where), since the total of loads which a user theoretically could plug in would be enormous. Conventionally, we assume (not necessarily correctly!) that the total load (hence Ib) will not exceed the OPD rating of the circuit. As for distribution of the total load, in terms of VD, the worst case would be for the entire 'maximum load' (hence OPD rating) to be applied at the furthest point in the circuit but, as eric, flameport, myself and others have said, it is more reasonable to assume that the load will be to at least some extent distributed along the length of the circuit.

The maximum VD on any circuit will obviously be seen at the furthest socket on the circuit. The VD at any socket will be equal to the sum of the VDs in all the bits of cable (between sockets) in the path from the particular socket back to the CU.

There is no relationship between VD and the total load on a circuit, since it depends where the loads are applied. For example, if, with a 20A circuit, a load of 19A were applied to a socket very close to the CU, the VD to that socket would be very small, and therefore so would the VD be pretty low from the socket at the very end of the circuit if one applied a 1A load to it (since, even with a long cable run, the 1A flowing through it wouldn't add very much to the VD present at the socket with the 19A load), even though the 'total load on the circuit' was 20A.

For easy arithmetic, consider a 10m radial with a total load of 20A, with one socket at 1m, with a 19A load, and one socket at the end of the circuit (10m), with a 1A load. Using your 18 mV/A/m figure, the VD at the first socket (VD in the cable from CU to first socket) would be 18 x 19 x 1 = 342 mV = 0.342 V. The 9m of cable carrying 1A between first and final socket would itself have a VD of 18 x 1 x 9 = 162 mV = 0.162V. The total VD seen at the end socket would therefore be the sum of the VDs in the two segments of cable, i.e. 0.342 V + 0.162 V = 0.504 V.

Now swap the loads. With just a 1A load at 1m, the VD in the first segment of cable (from CU to socket) would be 18 x 1 x 1 mV = 0.018 V. The VD in the segment of cables between sockets (with the 19A load at the far one) would be 18 x 19 x 9 = 3078 mV = 3.078 V. The total VD seen at the far socket will therefore be 0.018 + 3.078 = 3.096 V, about 6 times the VD in the first case (both cases being for a 20A total load).

Unlike what eric seems to have found for ring finals, I'm not even aware of any 'rule of thumb' guidelines about the distribution of loads on a radial circuit. However, if one were to extrapolate pro-rate from eric's figure, one would assume (I think pretty 'pessimistically') that a "20A radial" had a 12.5A load at the furthest point, and the remaining 7.5 distributed evenly along the length of the circuit. That would equate mathematically to an 'average load' over the full length of the circuit of 16.25 A (12.5 + {7.5/2}) - so, to get a VD of 11.5V (5% of 230 V) with 18 mV/A/m, one could have a cable length of about 39.3 metres.

Does that help at all?

Kind Regards, John
 
Thanks very much JohnW2 ... Let me read that a few times.
You're welcome. I recent wrote ....
Unlike what eric seems to have found for ring finals, I'm not even aware of any 'rule of thumb' guidelines about the distribution of loads on a radial circuit. However, if one were to extrapolate pro-rate from eric's figure, one would assume (I think pretty 'pessimistically') that a "20A radial" had a 12.5A load at the furthest point, and the remaining 7.5 distributed evenly along the length of the circuit. That would equate mathematically to an 'average load' over the full length of the circuit of 16.25 A (12.5 + {7.5/2}) - so, to get a VD of 11.5V (5% of 230 V) with 18 mV/A/m, one could have a cable length of about 39.3 metres.

I wonder if the following might help to illustrate. As I said, with 12.5A at the end and 7.5A evenly distributed across the whole length of the circuit, one could have about 39.3 metres of circuit length for a VD of 5% (of 230V). Rounding that up to 40A for convenience, you can see that it results in a VD (at the last socket) of 11.7 V 5.09% (fractionally above 5% because I rounded up the length) ...

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Kind Regards, John
 

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Thank you so much for you time and effort John. You have been really helpful. Not just on this post, but on many of my previous posts.

The same goes to EFLImpudence. Thank you
 
50 sq meter.jpg
As you add sockets with a drop to each one ends up using more cable, and the 1/3 rule drilling a beam also adds to total so the layout shown will likely use over 80 meters of cable. Rule of thumb was one 100 meters reel of cable per ring final, also splitting side to side means two rings more even in length and load, as likely 1.5 meters up to socket, and 2.5 meters down to socket. Plus it means if a circuit fails no need to run extension leads up/down stairs.

We should be able to work it all out, if Ze is 0.35 Ω then the line - neutral reading at centre of the ring final should read 0.94 Ω or less, however if you work out the errors, then the reading would need to be well out before one could say with any certainty that the design was in error.

And if we look at an EICR it asks for "Potential danger" and it would be hard to say excessive volt drop is really a potential danger, so one can hardly fail an installation on excessive volt drop.
 
In modern houses with concrete ground floor all cabling is run in the upstairs floor.
With up and down ring you therefore have two rings under the floor.
My builder used grey and white so they did not get mixed up.

So in this case side to side would save a lot of cable. The ring would only be slightly longer. I can’t see it being an issue in the modern typically smaller houses

The problem is foresee is the kitchen could load up one end of the ring.
However if this was the case you could keep the convention of a separate kitchen circuit.
 
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