Quite - and, as I said, they can't do that in the context of an 'after the event' EICR. That was my point.
Kind Regards, John
DIY vs Professional
- Thread starter Not An Electrician
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Kind Regards, John
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Sorry, my wording wasn't very clear. I was meaning that BC might want to "inspect" at (eg) first fix - in the context of everything else they do, that's probably not a very onerous task (looking for safe zones etc).
Clearly there's a balance in play here - providing enough oversight to deal with most of the problems (I think we agree there are gaps) without going too far and applying overly burdensome regulation. I can only assume that "TPTB" have decided that we currently have something that's "near enough" for the job in hand.
Clearly there's a balance in play here - providing enough oversight to deal with most of the problems (I think we agree there are gaps) without going too far and applying overly burdensome regulation. I can only assume that "TPTB" have decided that we currently have something that's "near enough" for the job in hand.
Yes, I understand that, and agree that it's probably what they do. However, I was responding to ....
I think I must have misunderstood you, since I thought you meant that getting an EICR done (by a third party) was all that a LABC would (or could) do in the name of "inspection and testing".
Kind Regards, John
I was only pointing out that after notification BC shoild arrange for an electrician to I&T the job and not the customer (or is that incorrect?)
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Indeed, my bad wording.
Dunno about others, but our (South Lakeland) BC offer you the choice. For minor electrical works there are two prices, last time I looked about £150 and £225 (ish) - the difference being if they have to get someone in to check it or if you can provide them with documentation. With mine I didn't get to the stage of determining if they'd accept my documentation - haven't started the work yet, and as we've now sold the house (STC), probably won't.
I did not bother to quiz him, but I was not quite sure what he meant by 'responsibility'.
Do you QUIZ everybody or save that for me as I can't post in here without you jumping in with your comments. Maybe once in a while you can leave me to answer another forum member.
Do you QUIZ everybody or save that for me as I can't post in here without you jumping in with your comments. Maybe once in a while you can leave me to answer another forum member.
Yes, that is clearly the usual process. Approved Doc P does indicate that a Building Control Body (LA or otherwise) will decide how much I&T is required and (although this probably does not apply to many, if any, DIYers) may decide that the 'installer' (although not a self-certifying electrician) is competent to undertake the I&T and will therefore accept his/her EIC without requiring any other I&T (and that the fee may then be reduced).
Kind Regards, John
Eh? As my words (as above) which you tried to quote said, I specifically did not 'quiz' you, because I know you can be a bit sensitive about such things. You are, of course, 'jumping in' on a response I made to someone else, not to you.
With respect, that's a bit rich. Do I have to remind you that you have a history (at least in the past) of appearing here once every few weeks, usually on a Monday, and contributing only to the extent of seeking out something I'd written (to someone other than you) in the previous few weeks that you could 'take me to task' about.
Hmmm - as above, how does that wish fit in with the fact that you did not leave me in piece when I answer another forum member?!!
Kind Regards, John
I posted in respect to the op, not your posts. I dont spend my life in this forum and can post when i wish, as you can
Simon queried my use of the word "responsibility" and you decided to bring me into your reply, before i had a chance to reply.
Simon queried my use of the word "responsibility" and you decided to bring me into your reply, before i had a chance to reply.
There was really no need for you to "reply" to Simon's response to my post - it was, after all, not 'addressed' to you. It was Simon who "brought you into" his post (which was a 'reply' to me), so it seemed perfectly natural for me to respond to what he had written when I replied to that post.
It is of the nature of this form of communication that messages are public and often receive multiple responses, even if they are 'addressed to' ('a response to') a particular person. You seem to be unnecessarily sensitive about such matters, particularly when I am involved.
Kind Regards, John
You and i were at crossed wires and the last post we had left it at waiting for the OP to clarify. Simon brought me into his reply and you then posted you didn't bother quizzing me, which i took as a bit strong. I have no issue with you and am not at all thin skinned
As I implied, I think you are reading far too much into what I wrote. Is your problem perhaps with the word 'quizzing' - i.e. would you have been less affected had I written something more verbose, like "I did not bother asking for clarification because it was not really a particularly important issue" (which is essentially what I meant) ??
Kind Regards, John
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When I decided to upgrade my qualifications at that time the local collage ran a series of three courses, the 16th Edition as it was then was how to read a book, simple, then the PAT testing was more hands on and a bit more involved, but still reasonable simple, then the 12 week course giving one the C&G 2391 on how to inspect and test an installation, although everyone on the course was an electrician to start with, there were a couple who were finding it hard, and it was rather involved, we had already done the other two so in all 24 weeks in college at 3 hours a week in night class, I am told everyone did pass, but nationally the pass rate was around 54% clearly not easy, specially since most taking the course were already electricians.
My point it is unreasonable to expect any DIY person to learn the skills required to be able to inspect and test their own house. I remember that exam well, I tested a board and the results were within the limits set, however I said there is a fault I need to look further, this was simply because experience told me such a short run of cable would not give those readings, and I was right, I found resistors soldered into the cables so had the sockets been used then the resistors would have melted the trunking and likely causes a fire. Seems the resistors would put there to simulate a larger installation, however they would have caused a fire and testing by trained personnel should have found them.
So plugging in a loop impedance tester and seeing the reading is 1.02 Ω when the pass mark for the MCB used is 1.37 Ω does not mean it's OK. There is more to it than that, for a start although 1.37 Ω may mean the MCB will trip in the required time, it does not mean the volt drop will be within limits, in fact very likely it is not within limits. I would expect the line - neutral reading to be below 1 Ω for the volt drop to comply, depending of course on the reading on incoming supply.
I watched an electrician move a light, in doing so he used extra cable, so to lights around 2 meters apart had around 8 meters of cable, nothing wrong with that, but it resulted in readings which at first glance did not seem correct, but over the years we get a feel of what is right and what is wrong, nothing to do with regulations, it is just one has tested so many times, you can guess what the reading should be, and if it's not what your guess is telling you it should be, you look for a fault.
Now with a full rewire the DIY guy knows what he has installed so testing is for him not that hard, but where using some existing wiring then testing and inspecting becomes really important, I got my mothers house rewired, I did not have the time to DIY the job, needed doing while she was in a care home for 4 weeks so paid for a firm to do the work. During the work I found an assortment of my fathers work, some times he had actually followed safe zones, other times he had not, there were 7/0.036 cables joined to 2.5 mm² cables and then back to 7/0.036 then to 4 mm² with junction boxes galore. Even some singles in parts. They may have tested OK but inspection showed it needed a rewire. It seems the original ring had 5 sockets 1954 at least that's what my dad told me. He had added so much over the years even before he died he could not have told you what was fed from what, we found FCU's covered by wall cupboards and in one case 3 FCU feeding each other. At around 0.010 Ω detecting a fuse in a circuit is not easy.
I really can't see how a DIY guy would be able even with all the courses to do a part rewire, it needs so much experience which simply can't be gained from books.
My point it is unreasonable to expect any DIY person to learn the skills required to be able to inspect and test their own house. I remember that exam well, I tested a board and the results were within the limits set, however I said there is a fault I need to look further, this was simply because experience told me such a short run of cable would not give those readings, and I was right, I found resistors soldered into the cables so had the sockets been used then the resistors would have melted the trunking and likely causes a fire. Seems the resistors would put there to simulate a larger installation, however they would have caused a fire and testing by trained personnel should have found them.
So plugging in a loop impedance tester and seeing the reading is 1.02 Ω when the pass mark for the MCB used is 1.37 Ω does not mean it's OK. There is more to it than that, for a start although 1.37 Ω may mean the MCB will trip in the required time, it does not mean the volt drop will be within limits, in fact very likely it is not within limits. I would expect the line - neutral reading to be below 1 Ω for the volt drop to comply, depending of course on the reading on incoming supply.
I watched an electrician move a light, in doing so he used extra cable, so to lights around 2 meters apart had around 8 meters of cable, nothing wrong with that, but it resulted in readings which at first glance did not seem correct, but over the years we get a feel of what is right and what is wrong, nothing to do with regulations, it is just one has tested so many times, you can guess what the reading should be, and if it's not what your guess is telling you it should be, you look for a fault.
Now with a full rewire the DIY guy knows what he has installed so testing is for him not that hard, but where using some existing wiring then testing and inspecting becomes really important, I got my mothers house rewired, I did not have the time to DIY the job, needed doing while she was in a care home for 4 weeks so paid for a firm to do the work. During the work I found an assortment of my fathers work, some times he had actually followed safe zones, other times he had not, there were 7/0.036 cables joined to 2.5 mm² cables and then back to 7/0.036 then to 4 mm² with junction boxes galore. Even some singles in parts. They may have tested OK but inspection showed it needed a rewire. It seems the original ring had 5 sockets 1954 at least that's what my dad told me. He had added so much over the years even before he died he could not have told you what was fed from what, we found FCU's covered by wall cupboards and in one case 3 FCU feeding each other. At around 0.010 Ω detecting a fuse in a circuit is not easy.
I really can't see how a DIY guy would be able even with all the courses to do a part rewire, it needs so much experience which simply can't be gained from books.
I'm sure that's true of most, but there is obviously a wide spectrum of DIYers. Experience is obviously very valuable, but particularly in relation to skills, rather than 'knowledge'.
As for there being 'DIYers and DIYers' ... I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, not the least because I'm sure that I must be far from unique, but, although it's not something I've ever literally done (at least, not 'in one go'), I would be perfectly comfortable undertaking a full re-wire. I certainly think that my theoretical knowledge (including my ability to test) and my knowledge of regulations is probably at least as good as that of some professional electricians. The lack of experience would mean that I would be relatively slow, but my extensive experience of non-electrical DIY would undoubtedly help with some of the non-electrical parts of the job. However, whilst undoubtedly not unique, I accept that I am a fairly unusual DIYer in this respect.
Kind Regards, John
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