Do we need to notify under Part P here?

[Paul5152]

I know Part P applies to electrical work in a kitchen, but obviously there are limits - eg buying a new kettle or microwave and plugging it in doesn't require LABC approval (or does it??? ) I guess because of the 3(c) exception.

So, if I was to get an Evoline V-Dock (essentially a pretty looking extension strip for Kitchens) with a plug & cable, and routed the cable through the kitchen work surface to an existing socket behind the kitchen units, would Part P apply there?

What if I get kitchen cabinet downlighters with a transformer with integrated lead and plug (or even a 'kettle' type lead - if it's good enough for a kettle..?) and lighting fittings with integrated leads to plug into the transformer, would Part P apply there?

If the flexible cables are tacked to the walls (behind kitchen units) does that change things?

I guess what I'm asking is if Part P only applies to kitchen work which involves messing with the 'fixed' side of the sockets? Can I do anything reasonable I want which just involves plugging into the existing sockets?

(It would obviously be neater (and probably safer) to have fixed wiring, but for £270 LABC fees, I'm thinking of alternatives...)

ALso, what if I want to put a doorbell in the kitchen? It would be mains powered, but the transformer already exists in the garage, so there would just be an 8V AC supply going into the kitchen. I suppose you could say that the doorbell power supply is 'extra-low-voltage wiring for the purpose of signalling', so it would be exempt under 3(a)?


(The more I look at Part P, the more absurd it becomes )

 

[ebee]

Part P applies (in England & Wales) to ALL electrical installation in domestic properties.

Some of it is notifiable some is not.

Instead of trying to find a way around notification then why not have it done right by either yourself or a registered domestic installer?

It was (supposed) to increase safety

 

[dingbat]

(The more I look at Part P, the more absurd it becomes )

That's because you haven't been looking at Part P.

How can you say that, "Reasonable provision shall be made... in order to protect persons... from fire or injury." is absurd?

 

[Softus]

So, if I was to get an Evoline V-Dock (essentially a pretty looking extension strip for Kitchens) with a plug & cable, and routed the cable through the kitchen work surface to an existing socket behind the kitchen units, would Part P apply there?

Yes.

You don't need to notify, but you do need to act safely.

If the socket you're intending to plug into is a single, then it will be hard to create a hazard. If it's a double, then you should avoid using the other socket, because the "V-Dock" is more likely to take the load up to 13A, which is the maximum for a socket, even a double.

What if I get kitchen cabinet downlighters with a transformer with integrated lead and plug (or even a 'kettle' type lead - if it's good enough for a kettle..?) and lighting fittings with integrated leads to plug into the transformer, would Part P apply there?

Yes. Please see above.

If the flexible cables are tacked to the walls (behind kitchen units) does that change things?

No.

I guess what I'm asking is if Part P only applies to kitchen work which involves messing with the 'fixed' side of the sockets?

No. It applies to every part of all domestic installations.

Can I do anything reasonable I want which just involves plugging into the existing sockets?

Yes, if you do it safely.

ALso, what if I want to put a doorbell in the kitchen?

Just fit a wireless one then.

I suppose you could say that the doorbell power supply is 'extra-low-voltage wiring for the purpose of signalling', so it would be exempt under 3(a)?

You could say it, but it would be an incorrect statement.

(The more I look at Part P, the more absurd it becomes )

Which bit(s)?

 

[Paul5152]

[quote="Paul5152";p="970316
How can you say that, "Reasonable provision shall be made... in order to protect persons... from fire or injury." is absurd?

The motive behind it is reasonable, but the implementation seems pretty arbitrary. A diyer can change a piece of damaged cabling and/or a broken socket in a kitchen without notification, but they can't add a new spur. They're just as likely to do one wrong as the other. If they're going to test it properly, they'd have to disconnect and reconnect the circuit at the CU, which isn't notifiable, but adding a new circuit is.

Then LABCs 'misbehaving' (wrt Approved Document Part P) and charging unreasonable fees or making unreasonable demands makes things worse.

(The 'doorbell' question is also a possibly absurd one - if a doorbell is not a 'signaling device' then even a battery operated wired one installed in a kitchen needs notification from my reading of Part P)

As for getting a 'proper electrician' to do the work. I'm very reluctant to do that, as every time we've had an NICEIC electrician do work, we've spent the next 6 months putting things right (loose connectors in sockets/light fittings (leading to a broken ring in one case), mains cables routed in the same trunking as telephone cables, cables resting on CH pipes and overheating etc). We may have been unlucky, but it doesn't instill confidence...

For doing-it-myself I have three (legal) choices:
- notify LABC, pay LABC £270, run a spur a metre upwards from a ring-main socket
- notify LABC, pay LABC £270, run a spur a metre upwards from a ring-main socket, argue for the next 6 months trying to get the 'not-a-registered electrician' £150 testing fee back because Approved Doc P says it shouldn't be charged.
- plug a 'pretty' 13A fused extension socket into a ring-main socket and run the flex a metre upwards, don't pay £270. (Assuming this doesn't need notification, which is what the OP was about).

Which would you do?

 

[Softus]

A diyer can change a piece of damaged cabling and/or a broken socket in a kitchen without notification, but they can't add a new spur. They're just as likely to do one wrong as the other.

You're wrong. And your wrongness illustrates your lack of understanding.

Replacing a section of cable involves buying and fitting cable of the same or bigger gauge. If you can't do that, and/or can't make the terminations safely, then you shouldn't even thinking of wielding an insulated screwdriver.

Adding a spur involves knowing of the existing cable distribution, and understanding the loading at different points. You have to know how to mechanically protect a new section of cable. You have to know how to check that the protection for the entire circuit is correct.

If they're going to test it properly, they'd have to disconnect and reconnect the circuit at the CU, which isn't notifiable, but adding a new circuit is.

Your point being?

Then LABCs 'misbehaving' (wrt Approved Document Part P) and charging unreasonable fees or making unreasonable demands makes things worse.

It hasn't made anything "worse". Given human nature, it's perfectly predictable behaviour during a period of adjustment to a new regulation.

(The 'doorbell' question is also a possibly absurd one - if a doorbell is not a 'signaling device' then even a battery operated wired one installed in a kitchen needs notification from my reading of Part P)

Which bit of Part P are you reading that says that?!

As for getting a 'proper electrician' to do the work. I'm very reluctant to do that, as every time we've had an NICEIC electrician do work, we've spent the next 6 months putting things right

That's very bad. What happened to the electrician when you reported him to the NICEIC?

Which would you do?

As a punter I'd do the same as you, but without moaning about legislation that's there for my safety and for the general good.

Since you've raised the matter of being dissatisfied with the Building Regulations, have you asked your MP to do anything about changing them for the better?

 

[Paul5152]

A diyer can change a piece of damaged cabling and/or a broken socket in a kitchen without notification, but they can't add a new spur. They're just as likely to do one wrong as the other.

You're wrong. And your wrongness illustrates your lack of understanding.

Replacing a section of cable involves buying and fitting cable of the same or bigger gauge. If you can't do that, and/or can't make the terminations safely, then you shouldn't even thinking of wielding an insulated screwdriver.

That's the problem for a lot of people!

You need to test the connections etc. If you know how to do that, you probably know how to do the rest. If you don't, you can end up with a broken ring (with a big risk of fires) when the cable which seemed securely terminated becomes loose when remounting the sockets.

You have to know how to mechanically protect a new section of cable.

That applies to replacing a cable as well...

Adding a spur involves knowing of the existing cable distribution, and understanding the loading at different points. You have to know how to check that the protection for the entire circuit is correct.

That applies whether the spur is in a kitchen or not - but if it's in a kitchen you need to notify, if it isn't, you don't.

(What's so special about a kitchen? A bathroom I can understand, or 'within arm's reach (or 2 metres) of a sink' I could understand, but a kitchen is a sink AND food preparation facilities. What has food got to do with electric installations?)

(The 'doorbell' question is also a possibly absurd one - if a doorbell is not a 'signaling device' then even a battery operated wired one installed in a kitchen needs notification from my reading of Part P)

Which bit of Part P are you reading that says that?!

Which part of Part P excludes battery operated equipment, or equipment isolated from earth?

P1 says it covers 'low and extra low voltage electrical installations... in or attached to a dwelling', so that covers it as battery operated equipment is an extra low voltage installation.

None of the notification exclusions exclude it AFAICS. (except possibly for the 'communications or signalling equipment' part 3(a), but someone else here has said that wouldn't apply). part 3(c) wouldn't apply because the wires from the push-button to the chime do not have integral plug & socket connections. 4.5V DC won't kill, but because of the wire I'd have to notify.

Band I equipment is not excluded from Part P notifications AFAICS. It looks like 3(a) should exclude it, but it misses out 'bell' and 'alarm' functions - unless you can count those as 'similar' to communications and signalling, but what if a BCO disagreed with you.

Wireless doorbells would be OK as there would be no other wires, but they don't work well in buildings with 2 foot thick solid stone walls...

That's very bad. What happened to the electrician when you reported him to the NICEIC?

I must admit that we didn't, we just kept calling them back to fix things (except for the loose socket connections which I fixed).

Since you've raised the matter of being dissatisfied with the Building Regulations, have you asked your MP to do anything about changing them for the better?

No, but I'm starting to think about it. However, knowing today's 'nanny state' political atmosphere, any change would probably be even worse

 

[Paul5152]

So, if I was to get an Evoline V-Dock (essentially a pretty looking extension strip for Kitchens) with a plug & cable, and routed the cable through the kitchen work surface to an existing socket behind the kitchen units, would Part P apply there?

Yes.

You don't need to notify, but you do need to act safely.

Sorry, when I said 'does part P apply', I meant 'do I need to notify' (I was tired )

Thanks for your answers.

If the socket you're intending to plug into is a single, then it will be hard to create a hazard. If it's a double, then you should avoid using the other socket, because the "V-Dock" is more likely to take the load up to 13A, which is the maximum for a socket, even a double.

Yes, that was my plan. We're planning to put some new kitchen units in where previously there weren't any. There's a socket just above the skirting board, so ideally I'd take a fused spur off that (or extend the ring) to above the work surface (neither of which would be notifiable if outside the kitchen), but the cost of notification makes that very expensive. So, I'm thinking of using a plug & cable V-Dock (and putting an access panel at the back of the unit in case I need to get at the original plug/socket for any reason) to avoid that. The socket will essentially be inaccessible so no one else will be able to plug anything else in, so it should be safe.

ALso, what if I want to put a doorbell in the kitchen?

Just fit a wireless one then.

2 foot thick stone walls defeat those... We've tried them, sometimes they work (usually when testing them after just setting them up) and sometimes they don't (the rest of the time ).

(The more I look at Part P, the more absurd it becomes )

Which bit(s)?

Mainly the arbitrary decisions:
- why is a kitchen special? (it can't be the sink, as utility rooms or downstairs loos aren't treated differently).

- 3(a) of Schedule 2B looks as if it's supposed to make Band I installations exempt from notification, but doesn't quite succeed. I'm pretty sure that doorbells aren't supposed to be notifiable, but looking at part P, they seem to be. (how is 4.5V DC or 8V AC more dangerous than the 50V DC/75V AC that you get on phone lines? OK the phone lines have higher impedance, but I could install 0.4A 48V DC power-over-ethernet (or a 6A 50V AC cabling from a PLC (strange house )) and that wouldn't be notifiable, whereas 0.5A 8V AC for a doorbell is). 3(a) should say something like 'extra-low voltage wiring for carrying less than 1A' rather than trying to specify an incomplete list of possible uses.

Also, the "bad behaviour" of some LABCs when dealing with it. They act as if they don't want anyone to notify by charging punitive fees and having complex notification procedures.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

- why is a kitchen special? (it can't be the sink, as utility rooms or downstairs loos aren't treated differently).

Because people have lots of work done in kitchens and bathrooms - think how many renovations/makeovers there are. The electrician special interest groups resented the fact that the electrical work done in these wasn't being done by electricians so they had them made special cases.

- 3(a) of Schedule 2B looks as if it's supposed to make Band I installations exempt from notification, but doesn't quite succeed.

Exempt from notification except in a special location.

I'm pretty sure that doorbells aren't supposed to be notifiable,

They are if they're in a special location.

but looking at part P, they seem to be. (how is 4.5V DC or 8V AC more dangerous than the 50V DC/75V AC that you get on phone lines?

It's not, but phone lines are also notifiable if in a special location.

And anyway - Part P is not about safety.

OK the phone lines have higher impedance, but I could install 0.4A 48V DC power-over-ethernet (or a 6A 50V AC cabling from a PLC (strange house )) and that wouldn't be notifiable,

It would in a special location.

whereas 0.5A 8V AC for a doorbell is).

No difference.

3(a) should say something like 'extra-low voltage wiring for carrying less than 1A' rather than trying to specify an incomplete list of possible uses.

"telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring" - so that completely covers your phone wires, Cat5/6/etc cabling, bell wires, PLC output cables..

"for the purposes of communications, information technology, signalling, control and similar purposes" - what uses are left?

 

[Paul5152]

Because people have lots of work done in kitchens and bathrooms - think how many renovations/makeovers there are. The electrician special interest groups resented the fact that the electrical work done in these wasn't being done by electricians so they had them made special cases.

That seems about the only logical explanation

- 3(a) of Schedule 2B looks as if it's supposed to make Band I installations exempt from notification, but doesn't quite succeed.

Exempt from notification except in a special location.

Sorry, I know what I meant... I wasn't planning on putting a doorbell in the bathroom, or my kids' paddling pool

"for the purposes of communications, information technology, signalling, control and similar purposes" - what uses are left?

Well, like a doorbell or alarm. Softus above said that a doorbell wasn't signalling - it seems to me that it is (or at least is 'similar' to signalling or control), but what if a BCO thought the same as Softus; since some purposes are explicitly listed, a grumpy BCO might take that as the limit of the exemption.

What about audio/video applications? Is a DVD/CD/Games console "communications"? Do fixed speaker wires or video cables need notification unless they can only be used by a radio/live TV?

(Yes, this might be silly, but an SI should either say what it means, or not say anything at all).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well, like a doorbell or alarm. Softus above said that a doorbell wasn't signalling - it seems to me that it is (or at least is 'similar' to signalling or control),

Did he? I didn't see that.

Of course a doorbell is a signalling device.

but what if a BCO thought the same as Softus; since some purposes are explicitly listed, a grumpy BCO might take that as the limit of the exemption.

"Signalling or similar purposes". Ask the BCO to check with the council's legal department to see if they'd be happy to stand up in court and argue that when someone presses a bell push at the front door they are not doing so in order that the bell will signal their presence.

What about audio/video applications? Is a DVD/CD/Games console "communications"?

Yup.

Do fixed speaker wires or video cables need notification unless they can only be used by a radio/live TV?

Communications.

(Yes, this might be silly, but an SI should either say what it means, or not say anything at all).

Ah - now you're affecting the lawyer's special interest group...

 

[Softus]

Replacing a section of cable involves buying and fitting cable of the same or bigger gauge. If you can't do that, and/or can't make the terminations safely, then you shouldn't even thinking of wielding an insulated screwdriver.

That's the problem for a lot of people!

Yes, OK, but it's those those people who shouldn't get involved with any kind of wiring.

You need to test the connections etc. If you know how to do that, you probably know how to do the rest.

I can easily think of common sense methods of replacing a section of cable without having any calibrated test equipment and/or knowing how to use it. You don't have to work to BS7671, if such a method can be shown to be safe.

If you don't, you can end up with a broken ring (with a big risk of fires) when the cable which seemed securely terminated becomes loose when remounting the sockets.

I don't align with that. It's eminently possible to reinstate a socket outlet without any terminations becoming loose. Decorators do it all the time (and I know they also cock it up a lot of the time).

You have to know how to mechanically protect a new section of cable.

That applies to replacing a cable as well.

Yebbut if you're replacing a section then you can mimic the mechanical protection that was in use before.

(What's so special about a kitchen? A bathroom I can understand, or 'within arm's reach (or 2 metres) of a sink' I could understand, but a kitchen is a sink AND food preparation facilities. What has food got to do with electric installations?)

It isn't the food, it's (a) the water, and (b) the fact that you can easily touch two exposed potentially conductive surfaces.

P1 says it covers 'low and extra low voltage electrical installations... in or attached to a dwelling', so that covers it as battery operated equipment is an extra low voltage installation.

None of the notification exclusions exclude it AFAICS.

This is moot at best. I don't see how a 4.5V DC battery constitutes an ELV electrical supply, mainly because of its internal resistence and its consequent inability to sustain a current that's hazardous to humans.

Wireless doorbells would be OK as there would be no other wires, but they don't work well in buildings with 2 foot thick solid stone walls.

Fair point.
________________________

Well, like a doorbell or alarm. Softus above said that a doorbell wasn't signalling - it seems to me that it is (or at least is 'similar' to signalling or control),

Did he? I didn't see that.

Please ask your mother to pass the salt.

Of course a doorbell is a signalling device.

That depends on your definition of "signalling", and also on your definition of "Of course".

"Signalling or similar purposes". Ask the BCO to check with the council's legal department to see if they'd be happy to stand up in court and argue that when someone presses a bell push at the front door they are not doing so in order that the bell will signal their presence.

Yes, of course. Create a confrontation and act in a bullying manner - that would sort everything out.

There are people to whom it's obvious that signalling could mean a signal to a human being or an electrical signal. I'm one of those people, so to me the two alternative definitions represent two distinct and non-overlapping concepts.

Then there are other people who take words and twist their meaning to suit their arguments, constructing their allegedly unequivocal statements in the form of sublimal challenges, with the clear implication that any attempt at contradiction would be an absurd digression into fantasy. ban-all-sheds is one of those people, and he appears to fail to see the difference between a 4.8V (or 12V, or 48V, or whatever) low impedance DC supply from a button along some bell wire, and a 5V high impedance digital data stream along CAT5 cable.