dodgy builder, makes a mess, sods off, then asks for payment

[Softus]

Yes Softus but for less than £900 how much chance has he got to get a penny especially after a counter claim

I honestly have no idea - Mike asked for information about the legal position, not an analysis of the statistical probability of money changing hands. No offence intended, but whilst you might be interested in guesswork, I'm not.

 

[mykp]

The installed the bath, sink and loo but ended up chipping the bath doing other work on the shower (reccessed shower pipes into brick work). So a one day old bath was ruined!

Promised to replace the bath, but never did.
If he caused the damage, then he is legally liable for putting it right.

After a number of phone calls and answering messages left, this was not put right and in the mean time the bath is unusable, thats why I had it fixed by someone else.

All the time he was there he would leave the room in a massive mess rendering it unuseable until we'd cleaned it.

If you didn't agree any ground rules before he started work, then this area will be too grey for a realistic prospect of financial compensation.

Agreed!

Left when we complained about the bath.

If he didn't complete the job that he was contracted to do, then you must offer him a reasonable chance to complete it; if he fails or declines, only then are you entitled to get someone else to complete it and charge the cost to him.

He didnt complete the job he was contracted to do as one the bath was damaged and I sought a replacement and to have it removed and the replacement installed then communications stopped as my calls where not returned. Plus after the bath incident I didnt particularly want him to finish then job if this is his attitude and work ethics

Work undertaken
Removal of old bathroom.
Plumbing work to bathroom as new suite in different places to old.
Moved soil pipe to alternative location.
Installed Bath, Sink, loo and new pipes for radiator.

Other Problems
When the builder left we had a working shower and bath and taking a shower was fine but the first time we used the bath we ended up with water leaking through the ceiling below and ended up with a flooded kitchen!

You are legally obliged to pay for the completed work done. If it required rectifying afterwards, and you didn't tell him about it, then you are not entirled to claim from him the cost of rectifying it.

Told on a number of occassions by phone and messages left by answering machine.

Now, we had somebody else in to finish the job and had to claim on our insurance to get the kitchen celing sorted. Numerous phone calls to the builder about the bath brought no joy and questions about insurance brought the comment "What insurance"

You may wish to ask your local Trading Standards Officer what insurance is mandatory, and then report him if he did not comply with the minimum.

Will do on monday as will contact CAB

So a year has passed and we have a completed bathroom, the bath was replaced and the soil pipes properly sealed.

BUT the original builder has sent us a bill for the work he undertook a little under a year ago (Feb 05) for the full amount of £888, and I am now wondering what to do?

You haven't said what you mean by the word "full" in this context, but he is entitled to charge you for the work he completed, and a court would hold that you must pay. Whether or not you are to be compensated for faults or for shoddy work (or even a poor attitude), is a completely different matter, and you musn't confuse the two.

As said above. I dont care about compensation really, just done want to have to throw more money at someone who wouldnt rectify problems caused.

The cost of repairing the ceiling was £200, the cost of a new bath was £325 and the cost of getting the bath replaced was £131.

You would be well advised to claim on your own insurance for this, and let the insurance company pursue the builder if he was negligant.

Insurance sorted the ceiling we sorted the bath, insurance said I would have to claim on his insurance.

Would it be civil of me to only pay the outstanding amount, ie: the cost of what he asks for minus what i've had to pay to get it fixed, or do I let him take me to court and let them decide or do I just say I aint gonna pay?

Forget about being civil - by all means remain polite with him, but don't let your manners guide your decisions.

Does anyone know the legal positions on this?

In practise, if he sued you for the payment, then you would make a counter-claim for compensation, and the court would decide on a fair compromise.

Pragmatically, you can make the builder an offer, pointing out that you are reducing your payment to him by an amount that you would otherwise seek to recover at court. It is up to him whether or not he accepts your offer, but his alternative is to call your bluff and go to court.

As andy pointed out, a solicitor will give you a qualified opinon on this, but you could do worse than consult the CAB, which would cost you nothing.

[/quote]

First think monday.

Thanks for the help so far guys.

mike

 

[Softus]

After a number of phone calls and answering messages left, this was not put right and in the mean time the bath is unusable, thats why I had it fixed by someone else.

I do sympathise, but please be aware that unless you have a phone bill that shows the calls, they won't carry as much weight as a series of letters would have done. This is worth bearing in mind for the future - always put your grievance in writing.

He didnt complete the job he was contracted to do as one the bath was damaged and I sought a replacement and to have it removed and the replacement installed then communications stopped as my calls where not returned. Plus after the bath incident I didnt particularly want him to finish then job if this is his attitude and work ethics

Again, sympathy, but I would advise that you start considering how a court will look at the situation, which will be from the point of view of whether or not the contract was performed.

You are legally obliged to pay for the completed work done. If it required rectifying afterwards, and you didn't tell him about it, then you are not entirled to claim from him the cost of rectifying it.

Told on a number of occassions by phone and messages left by answering machine.

Please see above comment about phone calls.

As said above. I dont care about compensation really, just done want to have to throw more money at someone who wouldnt rectify problems caused.

You're in danger of entirely missing the all-important point - the legal redress of compensation is your only leverage in reducing the bill. You cannot pay him less because you're unhappy, or because he was rude, or because he damaged the bath, or even, to be blunt, if he sh*gged your dog while you were out. The court will look first at the contract, and the completed work, and then at your counter-claim of costs incurred as a result of his negligence.

Insurance sorted the ceiling we sorted the bath, insurance said I would have to claim on his insurance.

Don't be under illusions about the goal of your insurance company - it is to prevent money being paid out to you. If the builder was insured, then they are entitled to know more, and, in some circumstances, reject your claim. However, if the builder has told you that he was not insured, then your insurance company is legally obliged to indemify you, under the terms of your contract with them.

 

[Freddie]

 

[Moz]

mykp

£750 for labour ...thats still very cheap as chips


send him a letter saying you owe him nothing ...

if he sends you a county court summons /lawsuit
read it an send back the portion saying you will see him in court ..

I doubt he will as his cheap an nasty prices show him to be a cowboy /joker

 

[Softus]

A solicitor can charge for sending and recieving correspondence and so can you.

Absolute nonsense.

A solicitor's letter has no more legal preference than one saying same sent by you

The term "legal preference" is a new one on me. It would appear to be gibberish, not fact.

A solicitor is a legal advisor or representative not a legal enforcer.

Without doubt, absolutely true. Also, absolutely irrelevant.

A no win no fee solicitor will want paying from day one and will only refund the monies when the case has been won AND money has been recovered from the other party--this could be months years or never.

This exceeds my expectations that we'd already had all of the irrelevant nonsense that it's possible to write on this subject.

A court order doesnt mean a thing unless it can be served on the person

Er, wrong - it means that there is a court order, which is distinctly different to there not being a court order. A court order is in force by its very existence; there is no concept of it being "served", like a summons.

...even then the person doesnt have to comply

Er, he does have to comply. That's the point of having it.

...he can just disappear

Even Derren Brown can't do that! In any case, why would someone who's just submitted a £880 bill want to disappear?

in which case a lot of people have to be paid a lot of money by someone who is pursueing this case.

No. They don't. Don't forget, Mike owes the builder money, not the other way around.

Work it out and do the best for you.

...and what's best for you is to not take advice from Freddie.

 

[mykp]

Moz,

the monies he is asking for are 5 days labour not the full amount of the contract price which was £1500 for two weeks work. As I said I bought all the materials for the job.

The missus has just come home and seen the letter he sent and has got all the paperwork out regarding this, The replacement bath was bought on 03.08.2004 and the insurance claim was paid on the 26.11.04, so this has been going on since August 2004!

mike

 

[Moz]

mykp
oh well this is all coming out now ...lol

did he finish cos YOU stopped him finishing the job ....wether it be telling him to leave or cross words ?

btw he must of used some materials if so he will show reciepts in the county court case ,

he is asking for the monies for the days he worked as per contract which he is entitled too , BY LAW ...FACT

he is legally allowed to claim this , the damage /flood was due to the job not finished....
not his fault if he had been able to do snag work(fault find work an touching up work ) this would of been picked up ,
the damage to the bath was an accident , he said he would replace this ... did you allow him too do this ?

he has a very strong case to take you to court , an its his word against you about the fallout stopped contract ..he may have a case for this bill in full now you have told us more


I have taken bad customers to court before an claimed lots of extra damages My time in court ,my Lawyers costs an the judge will see all the evidence an if this builder is not none to the courts(No CCJs against him! an past glowing customer references ) it maybe easier to pay this bill

 

[Freddie]

 

[Moz]

a county court summons in my area is £25 an its a simple two page document
give your details an complaint an then the courts deal with it , it usually takes a month to come to court an you can say where you want the case to be heard an when ...

when you attend its like a formal side office room ,in the courts you attend with your lawyer or by yourself with your evidence , you get to address the magistrate , then the "accused " it takes a few hours an then you get a Judgement an damages order ....

 

[Freddie]

 

[Igorian]

I can answer that one, if we are talking small claims. If you don't turn up, a judgement will be made on the evidence presented. I took an insurance company through this procedure and won because they failed to show.

 

[Freddie]

Tell them what happens next

 

[kendor]

should we just deport ALL builders or better still shoot them all?

 

[Moz]

in my area you must make another appointment IF they have rung the courts an said they are ill (docs note required )
if no show the case is heard " in parl ..." some latin saying an you are awarded damages ...

as a business owner I know where the accused/guilty live an send bailiffs 24hr later for monies an or goods ... + bailiffs fees on top