Drain problem. Home insurance?

[KenGMac]

OK for my sins I work as an Insurance Surveyor, and have done so for some years now.

It would be a very, very unusual Home Insurance Policy that did not contain a "peril" or clause which covered "Damage to Underground Services"
Several years ago, there was a change in insurers attitude, caused by an edict handed down by the [then] Ombudsman which stated that the Policy holder cannot "maintain" that which he / she cannot see. Underground services covers drains, water, and even oil pipework where in rural areas the heating is done with Kerosene

Now the above results in the following.
ROOF- if damaged by high winds [generally above 55 MPH ] and the roof is in generally good repair then the claim will be accepted by the insurer.
ROOF- if as above damaged -but- the roof is in a poor condition generally, then the claim will be declined.
TOP-TIP, the insurer can go on to Google Street View and look at your roof back over a year or two, if the damage is present historically then the claim can be declined.

All the above roof will have been in full view of the Policy Holder, BUT, the underground drains are not visible to the Insured, therefore damage to underground drains will be an accepted claim.

As for "Accidental Damage" this is a sort of a bolt on, in that the Policy holder must request this cover at the time the Policy is taken out, BUT this additional cover can be requested at any time during the term of the Policy, as an aside a very, very good addition to any Policy, the reason as posted above where the roof damage claim may be rejected but the internal damage is accepted.

Going back on programme, the O/P can try his insurer to see if they will cover the drain damage, the fact that the O/P may ? have damaged the drain further would be up to the Insurer to prove?? I think not? In basic Insurance principles what is called the "Proximate Cause" is a damaged leaking underground service, the drain.

There are other so called "Emergence Assistance insurances" offered by various companies, where this form of insurance will give limited assistance, either they come with a time on site constraint or something similar, these insurances started with cover for internal Electrics and plumbing but have spread externally.

Ken

 

[Steve]

Thanks for all your replies, WRT the gulley, I want to clarify there was no way on earth that anybody could have taken the concrete out from around it without disturbing it. The clay gulley was set 3 inches below the concrete surface with the concrete edge chamfered smooth info the gulley. In addition the gulley top was cracked. Replacement was inevitable.

 

[phatboy]

@KenGMac thats a very helpful reply! May I ask a similar question?

I know that my drains are made from pitch fibre, and as such could fail at some point. As long as I 'don't know' that they are made from that, and they do indeed collapse, is it likely I would be able to successfully claim on my house insurance for the required repair? Is it that simple?

 

[Ian H]

Pitch fibre is awkward. It doesn’t collapse, it delaminates. It’s made in layers and the inner ones swell.

A few years ago we would drag a big metal bomb through it to reround it, then we would line it.

Since then it’s been found to contain asbestos. The last one I did I had to expose the pipe and a specialist came to remove it. That was an insurance job but others have had our recommended action knocked back and it’s not been covered.

It’s a bit hit and miss with the insurance.

 

[KenGMac]

phatboy, good evening.

Short answer is Yes any such claim should be covered.

Some Insurers will prevaricate but bottom line is as previous post, what you cannot see slowly deteriorating, and failing, you cannot undertake remedial action on, unlike a roof, which is highly visible.

Hope this assists.

Ken

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Not a massive job in the grand scheme of things to replace back to the manhole. Gulley, rest bend, a junction, section of pipe a suitable coupling to connect to what's there, add a bit of peagravel for pipe bedding and concrete to make good, £200 tops I'd say. Day or 2's work probably, you've got that far, just be careful to get a clean cut on the old pipe to join to. By the time you've argued with the insurance you could have DIY.

 

[garyo]

In the past I've been pretty successful in linking into concrete encased salt glazed. The concrete doesn't really seem to bond with the salt glaze, so with a sharp SDS it comes away quite easily once you get it started. The trick is getting the bulk of the concrete off without shattering the pipe, as you've discovered!

 

[wessex101]

phatboy, good evening.

Short answer is Yes any such claim should be covered.

Some Insurers will prevaricate but bottom line is as previous post, what you cannot see slowly deteriorating, and failing, you cannot undertake remedial action on, unlike a roof, which is highly visible.

Hope this assists.

Ken

That is very illuminating. It would appear in this case that whoever replaced the old cast iron stack pipe probably broke the collar on the clay rest bend. It would never have occurred to me to make an insurance claim for the subsequent repairs but you learn something new every day. All those old salt glazed pipes with leaking collars I've seen over the years could have been insurance jobs.

"what you cannot see slowly deteriorating, and failing, you cannot undertake remedial action on" I wonder if this also includes corroded butterfly cavity wall ties as well? And what about old rusted galvanised water pipes?

 

[John D v2.0]

So if you're blind then you can claim for anything then
I'd expect insurance to get expensive if anything that comes to end of its useful life and out of sight was covered. Id rather only insure things that would cause a big issue, drains would be a common enough issue to be coverable as an extra.

 

[phatboy]

Pitch fibre is awkward. It doesn’t collapse, it delaminates. It’s made in layers and the inner ones swell.

A few years ago we would drag a big metal bomb through it to reround it, then we would line it.

Since then it’s been found to contain asbestos. The last one I did I had to expose the pipe and a specialist came to remove it. That was an insurance job but others have had our recommended action knocked back and it’s not been covered.

It’s a bit hit and miss with the insurance.

phatboy, good evening.

Short answer is Yes any such claim should be covered.

Some Insurers will prevaricate but bottom line is as previous post, what you cannot see slowly deteriorating, and failing, you cannot undertake remedial action on, unlike a roof, which is highly visible.

Hope this assists.

Ken

Thanks for the helpful replies guys, I'll rest a little easier about this now!

Tim

 

[KenGMac]

" I wonder if this also includes corroded butterfly cavity wall ties as well? And what about old rusted galvanised water pipes?

OK the underground water pipe is covered.

Now for the Wall Tie failure? quick answer is I do not know, sorry about that.

Wall tie failure was generally met with a declinature of the claim, the Insurers would recoil behind another all encompassing clause found in the "what is NOT covered under your Policy" that specific clause was rust and corrosion is not covered.

OK, OK I do know that the two things, the underground pipe [metal] has rusted and the wall tie [metal] has rusted, I have not surveyed any wall tie failures for several years so I am not fully up to speed as to what path the Insurers are or will take to resolve this issue.

The best way to think about this issue is that the [then] Ombudsman handed down a case, or scenario, specific decision and that was only dealing with or covering "Underground Services" as above I have no recent call to seek any Insurance information where wall tie failure has occurred.

Notwithstanding my lack of any recent knowledge, this area of wall ties is a possible can of wriggly things?

Ken.

 

[bobasd]

ian h,
id be ineterested in your experience with patching pitch fibre pipe esp. - or any other pipe.
what guarantee does your firm give?

back in the nineties we did pipe bustin with 4" rubber liners on CI an salt glaze in industrial an commercial but there was no money an to many problems doin residential - what have your lot found?

weve always got shut of any pitch fibre, justdug it out no way tried repairs esp. with the external shrink wraps - a will it hold will it leak business?

 

[Ian H]

I think they give 12 months on a repair and 24 months on a liner.

If the pitch fibre was oval or clay was fractured we would patch line a piece of plastic onto it and then connect upto that.

Otherwise we use either the AC4000 or DC115 flexseal joints and never have problems with those.

 

[bobasd]

thanks.
yeah, no problems with piecin in with plastic an flexseal fittings or similar althouh like i say we never leave pitch fibre in the ground. in fact its rare to see it nowadys - for me anyway..
but have you done work 10m or 15m under factory floors etc. in 4"/6"/8" pipe usin say a patchin repair kit?

 

[Ian H]

Pitch is rare for me too, we used to cut it with the grinder same as we do clay and repair it with bandseals but now they say it has asbestos it’s changed.

Yes, I line lengths under floors with resin liner CIPP’s (cured in place pipes). I wrote a bit about it here:
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/drainage-engineers-chat-lining-drains.484605/#post-3933906

If we ever line pitch fibre (I haven’t done that for a while). We do the same as above but first pull a series of metal ‘bombs’ through to make it round again.

We need access both sides then set up a frame with winch over a manhole, an arm hangs down off that into the channel and then we rope the winch cable through to the next manhole or dug hole.

The bombs get wound back through in size order until the pitch fibre will fit the liner, then we line it as above. The longest i’ve done is 25mtrs and i’ve only ever seen pitch fibre in 4”.

Like this where yellow is the winch and red is the cable and bomb:

This is the winch and top section of the frame being used to pull an RSJ onto my roof: