What if what the energy goes into is a phase-change storage device and you never take it out?
Electric heating
- Thread starter Tigger90
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My first experience of an "intelligent" storage heater was in my flat in Germany 1970. It predicted how much heat was needed for the next day and added that much heat to the store using off peak ( over night ) electricity. Then during the day and evening it opened vents to allow stored heat into the room. It worked but a fan heater was needed if a hot day was followed by a cold day. It also used pulse width modulation to control how much power went to the elements which radiated a lot of RFI preventing my AM radio from receiving the BBC.
Housing associations tend to fit landlord friendly equipment meaning low maintainance cost equipment which may not always be best for the tenant.
Housing associations tend to fit landlord friendly equipment meaning low maintainance cost equipment which may not always be best for the tenant.
Like unburnt oil and coal ?. Solar energy stored for thousands of years.
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OK see your point so energy in = energy out plus energy stored. However point is all heaters release either energy, or for pedantic unburnt fuel, so yes we could say % efficiency = ratio energy out to unburnt fuel, but it is far more useful to say % efficiency is the ratio of energy required to energy lost times 100 to make it a % of course.
So now the questions, does the air need to be warmed, does the chair need to be warmed, do the walls need to be warmed? So items we touch need to be warm, that clearly includes the air, however if we are heated, then the air can be cooler and we are still comfortable, so infrared heating is likely the most efficient form of heating as it can be aimed at us, so is making us feel comfortable without heating air, however the problem is control, we can't alter the output from a heater, all we can do is add or subtract how many are running, and to measure if comfortable is also a problem, clearly if not heating air, a thermometer measuring air temperature is not going to work very well. So we can use infrared with other forms of heating to reduce air temperature required, but not really any good on it's own.
So if I look at my day, at the start midnight I am in bed, I like to have some weight on me, so I am covered, however I also like some warmth in the air I breath so around 17°C is comfortable in bedroom, other rooms 12°C to reduce warm up time and prevent freezing, anything above that was a waste. At 8 am I want to get up, and go down stairs for a shower, wearing minimal cloths, so 21°C for bedroom, landing. stairs. hall and wetroom, once dressed this can reduce to 19°C down stairs, I will be pottering about so don't want it too warm, and by 6 pm I am ready to settle and watch TV, so want it slightly warmer 20°C or 21°C until 11 am when ready for bed again.
This however will never happen, the fabric of the building stores too much heat energy, so once a room is heated, it can take hours to cool down again, very easy to heat a room, no so easy to cool a room without allowing heat to escape outside by opening a window. So the main problem with central heating is not heating the room to required temperature, but insuring it does not exceed the required temperature.
So we go to great lengths to stop rooms over heating, I have 7 thermostatic radiator valves (TRV) to stop rooms over heating, 4 of which are programmable, so some areas only heated at certain times of the day, gone are the days of a single thermostat and satisfied with near enough.
This has resulted however in the time required to re-heat a room being much more important, specially with geofencing working out when we are near to home and turning the heating on ready for our return. If a room can be held at 12°C most of the day, then heated to 19°C just before we arrive home we are told this saves energy, as to if a room would every cool that much is another question, however speed at which a room is heated is now important for many people, so to base efficiency to some extent on speed is sensible. Under floor heating would cost the same to run as a fan heater if floor is insulated and it is kept warm 24/7, but if only wanted for one hour the fan heater wins hands down.
So some one retired like me, storage radiators would not be too bad, but my daughter who works all day, wants a heating system which only releases heat when she is home, so efficiency changes according to how the home is used. And of course how much the home retains the heat.
So a commuter who leaves home at 6 am and returns at 7 pm only needs heat for 4 hours outside the low tariff time. So question is if rooms have doors and if heat transfers room to room, as it is possible a living room only needs heating for 4 hours a day, and heating it 24/7 even if the heating is modulated when no one home, could be more expensive to having no off peak and heating only when required.
However how you would measure what is required for cheapest heating is another question, and to have a fan assisted heater in the plinth in a kitchen is great, but having a fan kick in when watching TV in the living room at 11 am when sound is turned down so as not to keep others awake is completely different, I have lived with a Myson for years, yes small and high output, but noise is a problem.
Even my TRV heads many a sound when adjusting, which can be distracting. As to if the flaps or other controls on a storage radiator make noise I don't know, but the liquid distributed home heating system is a lot quieter than a hot air system, and efficiency is not everything. In fact efficiency has very little to do with the selection, we really could not give a dam, all we want is cheap to run. OK there must be some Eco Warriors out there, but they would never use storage radiators until last fossil fuel power station closes.
So now the questions, does the air need to be warmed, does the chair need to be warmed, do the walls need to be warmed? So items we touch need to be warm, that clearly includes the air, however if we are heated, then the air can be cooler and we are still comfortable, so infrared heating is likely the most efficient form of heating as it can be aimed at us, so is making us feel comfortable without heating air, however the problem is control, we can't alter the output from a heater, all we can do is add or subtract how many are running, and to measure if comfortable is also a problem, clearly if not heating air, a thermometer measuring air temperature is not going to work very well. So we can use infrared with other forms of heating to reduce air temperature required, but not really any good on it's own.
So if I look at my day, at the start midnight I am in bed, I like to have some weight on me, so I am covered, however I also like some warmth in the air I breath so around 17°C is comfortable in bedroom, other rooms 12°C to reduce warm up time and prevent freezing, anything above that was a waste. At 8 am I want to get up, and go down stairs for a shower, wearing minimal cloths, so 21°C for bedroom, landing. stairs. hall and wetroom, once dressed this can reduce to 19°C down stairs, I will be pottering about so don't want it too warm, and by 6 pm I am ready to settle and watch TV, so want it slightly warmer 20°C or 21°C until 11 am when ready for bed again.
This however will never happen, the fabric of the building stores too much heat energy, so once a room is heated, it can take hours to cool down again, very easy to heat a room, no so easy to cool a room without allowing heat to escape outside by opening a window. So the main problem with central heating is not heating the room to required temperature, but insuring it does not exceed the required temperature.
So we go to great lengths to stop rooms over heating, I have 7 thermostatic radiator valves (TRV) to stop rooms over heating, 4 of which are programmable, so some areas only heated at certain times of the day, gone are the days of a single thermostat and satisfied with near enough.
This has resulted however in the time required to re-heat a room being much more important, specially with geofencing working out when we are near to home and turning the heating on ready for our return. If a room can be held at 12°C most of the day, then heated to 19°C just before we arrive home we are told this saves energy, as to if a room would every cool that much is another question, however speed at which a room is heated is now important for many people, so to base efficiency to some extent on speed is sensible. Under floor heating would cost the same to run as a fan heater if floor is insulated and it is kept warm 24/7, but if only wanted for one hour the fan heater wins hands down.
So some one retired like me, storage radiators would not be too bad, but my daughter who works all day, wants a heating system which only releases heat when she is home, so efficiency changes according to how the home is used. And of course how much the home retains the heat.
So a commuter who leaves home at 6 am and returns at 7 pm only needs heat for 4 hours outside the low tariff time. So question is if rooms have doors and if heat transfers room to room, as it is possible a living room only needs heating for 4 hours a day, and heating it 24/7 even if the heating is modulated when no one home, could be more expensive to having no off peak and heating only when required.
However how you would measure what is required for cheapest heating is another question, and to have a fan assisted heater in the plinth in a kitchen is great, but having a fan kick in when watching TV in the living room at 11 am when sound is turned down so as not to keep others awake is completely different, I have lived with a Myson for years, yes small and high output, but noise is a problem.
Even my TRV heads many a sound when adjusting, which can be distracting. As to if the flaps or other controls on a storage radiator make noise I don't know, but the liquid distributed home heating system is a lot quieter than a hot air system, and efficiency is not everything. In fact efficiency has very little to do with the selection, we really could not give a dam, all we want is cheap to run. OK there must be some Eco Warriors out there, but they would never use storage radiators until last fossil fuel power station closes.
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Yes, we have an undersea cable to France for our electric with back up generators at the local power station when someone pulls the plug out!!
The gas is shipped over by boat and supplied to some houses. The others if they want gas have the bottled tanks which I am pretty sure are only for cooking.
A lot of people are moving over to electric heating when their gas boiler packs up due to the cost of gas.
The IOW is larger and also has a population approximately double the size of Guernsey. I am sure if we were a worthwhile investment for other utility providers they would all have the gas boats queuing at the harbour!
And St. Helier has a larger population than Newport.
The point is that the CI are not an insignificant market.
Only if the monopoly is de facto due to no interest from other providers.
St Helier is not in Guernsey and St Helier may have a larger population than Newport but we all have separate energy providers on all of the islands.
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There is also the fact that gas companies do not seem to work on the principle of offering a service to a property in the hope that a customer will use the product and therefore provide income for the company.
If a customer wants a new supply to a property, they have to pay for the service connection to be made.
A pipeline from or to a foreign country (albeit in the EU) to or from an island would appear to be a non starter.
If a customer wants a new supply to a property, they have to pay for the service connection to be made.
A pipeline from or to a foreign country (albeit in the EU) to or from an island would appear to be a non starter.
Particularly as the CI are not in the EU.
I worked in a panel building workshop in an uninsulated single skin brick 9x7m building (Farm building). I started working there in Aug and we left the big 3m square doors open to let the heat out.
After a few weeks the other guy switched on the 2x3KW wall mounted IR heaters. These were fine if we were in a position to cast a shadow from them but if we had our back to them our hands would be cold.
We had a couple of old armchairs for our tea breaks which soon lost their appeal as they were well out of the pool of IR radiation and we'd sit at the benches to eat.
By November the IR heaters were blatantly inadequate and while sorting out a big pile of 'stuff' to create some more working space I found some oil filled rads which soon got PAT'd and put into service in preference to the IR heaters, IIRC there were 5 and rated at something like 800-1000W each. By careful positioning they provided a much more comfortable working environment.
So my experience of IR heating is not good but I imagine in a more restricted area it could be.
In all but name.
Perhaps a good solution for brexit.
Agree to all the standards of the EU but just say you're not in the EU.
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