Electrics setup all strange after electrician has been out. Riddle inside (stiff drink needed)...

[Mr. Clueless]

JB's? I'll assume that's something like the floorboards then in which case the floorboards are down, however because damp work was being done there is a hatch in the floor so there is access to the subfloor where all the cabling is.

I've just done the light test you mentioned but it didn't teach me anything. Turned every light on in the house & started turning fuses (MCBs?) off. I set it up in the way where that 2-switch operated upstairs landing AND the kitchen/diner (when it obviously shouldn't). This time when flicking it it also turned the living room light on when it hadn't previously done.

I turned other fuses off 1 by 1 & none of them interfered with the lights at all. Made no difference.

I know i'm to get in touch with the builder boss & i know i've to tell him the electrics are all a bit all over the place, but other than that i'm explaining something that i really don't understand so what should i be telling them so they know what the crack is?
I can't just say some bloke on the internet told me it's been done wrong & i should have a new wire to the fuse box & i should have something called an RCD because in my experience the person you're talking to about it says that everything is A-ok & stop worrying because you don't need these things.

I'm not saying anyone is right/wrong here, just that it can be quite iffy trying to explain something that you actually know nothing about (me+electrics).

 

[Mr. Clueless]

PS I haven't included the bits regarding the dimensions of the joists. Modern timber is not as strong as old timber (have a look at the number of rings in one of your old joists compared to your new ones. The old ones will have about 15 rings per inch, modern you might get 6 or 7- faster growing and weaker) so you may need much bigger timbers to satisfy current building regs. Span tables here http://www.easi-timber.co.uk/downloads/BSW_Easi_Span.pdf

I don't want to drift too off topic here, but yes i actually did notice that. Was the first thing i looked at when the old joists were out - the rings were very tight on the ends whereas they were nowhere near on the new timber. Although new timber must surely be suitable even if not as good as 'the good old days' as that's what they're building houses out of these days.
The joists had to go though to be honest. The ends on some were very very mushy with the damp & rot.

 

[sparkwright]

You just need to say something like since the building work switches aren't doing what they are supposed to - that alone should be enough.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Well that's one question answered- doesn't appear to be any new cabling into the consumer unit.

As well as my previous post there, i've just been re-reading this thread trying to understand it better & latched on to this.

Are you saying that to install an additional 3 sockets in the living room, the electrician would have to wire in new cable to the fusebox thing?

This would surely then mean opening up the fuse box, putting new cable in, drilling through the cupboard that it sits in, smashing up the solid floor of the kitchen, running that cable underground out in to the open space of the living room subfloor?
Now i must think i have surely got this wrong because i can't see everyone up & down the land doing that so the only other answer is i must have got it wrong (i hope).

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Before the electrician came out this is what would happen....

.......NOW....... when you flick fuse #2 (downstairs lights) off, depending on what switches are on/off results in differing outcomes.......

*There's 3 lights in the kitchen/diner by the way


IF.......

• The landing (upstairs) light is turned on using the downstairs switch (there is a switch upstairs & downstairs for this light) AND the kitchen/diner lights are off .... then all the switches don't work downstairs except for the downstairs hall which does work
• The landing light switch is on upstairs (same as above) AND the kitchen/diner lights are on (that's the difference) ... then the hall downstairs will turn its light on/off (same as above) HOWEVER the landing switch downstairs will turn the landing light on/off upstairs AND ALSO the kitchen/diner lights.

• The landing light is turned on using the upstairs switch (so same as above except the upstairs light is turned on by the other switch now) AND the kitchen/diner lights are off .... then all downstairs lights are off AND the landing but the downstairs hall switch still works.
• The landing light is on upstairs (same as above) AND the kitchen/diner lights are on (the difference from the previous example) .... then same outcome - downstairs lights are off including the landing upstairs, but the downstairs hall switch still operates its light ..... HOWEVER unlike the previous example where the upstairs light was on & the kitchen lights were on, the downstairs hall switch in this instance does not interfere with the kitchen/diner lights.

......

So this was all *******s then- the lights don't function at all unless breaker #2 is energised? If so then that's a good thing, at least the cabling is being protected at the correct rating.

Regarding what you tell the builder- first part is 'my light switches aren't working properly. They were working before your 'electrician' got involved, please get them working properly before you leave site today.' You (or your wife) might want to draw up a table of what each switch did to make it easier to communicate issue/as a truth table for the 'electrician' to work against.

Second part. 'Where's the RCD or RCBO for the downstairs ring - you must have added one to comply with 17th edition?' (Asked in a curious 'I need to know cos when it trips I'll need to know where it is to reset it' rather than in a 'I know that your electrician is a bodging tosspot and hasn't fitted one' tone of voice/text/email.

Third part (naughty but enjoy it)- 'have you got the thermal calcs for the floor cos I can't see how bare timbers are going to get down to the required U value in Part L'

Fourth part- get your tape measure and measure the width and depth of your new joists and the span they are crossing- if there's a dwarf wall half way across the room then you'll have 2 spans. Check that table I sent you- if they're adequate then fine, if they're not then kick off.

As a property owner, you are responsible for ensuring compliance etc etc. However, as a consumer you are entitled to expect that a professional whose services you have engaged has priced for and has in fact completed an installation that is compliant with current building regulations. So if there are issue with the joist sizes, the insulation, the lack of notification and the substandard electrical work (and I don't even want to think about the gas man) you need to think quite hard about paying him at all.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Well that's one question answered- doesn't appear to be any new cabling into the consumer unit.

As well as my previous post there, i've just been re-reading this thread trying to understand it better & latched on to this.

Are you saying that to install an additional 3 sockets in the living room, the electrician would have to wire in new cable to the fusebox thing?

This would surely then mean opening up the fuse box, putting new cable in, drilling through the cupboard that it sits in, smashing up the solid floor of the kitchen, running that cable underground out in to the open space of the living room subfloor?
Now i must think i have surely got this wrong because i can't see everyone up & down the land doing that so the only other answer is i must have got it wrong (i hope).

Not necessarily- one possible cause of your issues would be additional cabling going to the consumer unit & being connected to the wrong MCB. Adding 3 sockets to a ring wouldn't necessarily mean adding or moving cables at the consumer unit (CU), depends on the layout of the house. Your pic shows no new cabling at the CU so that's one hypothesis scotched

 

[Echo the husky]

Whatever the final result please do let us know!

 

[oldbutnotdead]

And another PS. You're in quite a good position- you have a written quotation with no detail. Again as a consumer you are entitled to expect that a quotation from a building professional (someone who makes their living from doing this type of work) would be a quotation for works that comply with current building regulations. More so if you've done any sort of due diligence (checked any claimed membership of trade bodies, taken up any references for previous jobs, checked status at Companies House)

The notification/lack of is a bit tricky- regularisation (notification of building works after the event) is expensive and disruptive and you never know, your builder might have made proper notification. Trouble is building regs isn't like planning permission (public record) - not sure what happens if you phone the council up and ask them if they've had any notification for works at 123 Acacia Villas. If they've been notified then great, if not then they'll want some cash and they'll want a look at what's been done. Definitely hold on to any outstanding cash if they haven't been notified, if BCO requires extra works to achieve compliance then your builder will either have to swallow that cost, add it to the quote or walk out. If he walks or tries to inflate the quote to achieve compliance or collect on any outstanding balance then you'll have to see him in court.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

So this was all *******s then- the lights don't function at all unless breaker #2 is energised? If so then that's a good thing, at least the cabling is being protected at the correct rating.

No no it wasn't (good how i can see what you typed when i quote you lol).

Before the electrician came out there was no issue whatsoever. A light switch only ever controlled 1 light, period.
Since the electrician has been out - for 1) the burglar alarm no longer works (& is on the light circuit we've been told, so surely has to be linked) and 2) in 1 setup, one of the light switches now controls 4 or 5 sets of lights.

I say OR there, because we went through every sequence we could think of. One of the sequences resulted in the downstairs landing light controlling (a) the landing light (b) the diner light (c) the light at the lower end of the kitchen (d) the light at the upper end of the kitchen. We went through all these sequences because i knew i was coming to this forum & wanted to give all info i possibly could.

However when i ran that light test you mentioned & put it in that setup whereby that 1 switch will control multiple lights, not only did it control the (a)(b)(c)(d) lights that i just mentioned but this time it also controlled (e) the living room lights as well ... all on that 1 lightswitch which it hadn't done before i made this thread. Unless there was some other variable.


I will run another test tomorrow as i'm not sure about 1 of the combinations i wrote down, however i know this....

******** Right i'm going to have to apologise here & say i'm going to have to run another test tomorrow because i just did another test then to be sure of what controlled what. I think when we've been on the sequence where 1 switch controlled multiple lights i've been thinking that it's been turning the landing light on/off as i've seen a light come on/off upstairs. I've just tested now & found that sure there's a light but it's not the one i thought - it's a different light. The only other explanation is it's changing all the time.

So i apologise for that


What i do know then is this - there IS a setup whereby flicking switch #2 to off will kill the downstairs lights. They wont turn on at all, other than the hall light but that's nothing new as it's on the upstairs circuit. I think this is when the upstairs landing light is turned on using the upstairs landing light switch but i'm going to have to test again tomorrow.

However i just ran a test now with this sequence & this is 100% correct....

* upstairs landing light is turned on using the DOWNstairs switch for that light.
* i flick fuse #2 OFF so downstairs lighting should be killed, correct?
* However...downstairs lighting remained ON. the light switches in the kitchen & diner still turn their lights on & off & the same for the living room - all these lights are ON. <--- this shouldn't be happening
* however the downstairs hall light WONT turn on/off - this has been killed. <----- this is also incorrect as it's on the upstairs circuit
* the DOWNstairs landing light which i thought was turning the landing light on & off actually wasn't. The landing light has now been killed (although i didn't test if the upstairs landing light would operate it). <---- this is correct since i believe it is on the downstairs circuit (remember - i said they're back to front - the landing & the hall).
* the DOWNstairs landing light in this instance actually turns the box bedroom light on/off. This room is immediately above this switch. <---- obviously you can't get any more incorrect

IF it's likely to have made any difference - the builders had the architrave off & the wires were obviously exposed. I don't know if it's possible if they could've done anything or if it's only going to have been the electrician.



This has totally fried my head tonight so god knows what it's done to you. Apologies for getting it wrong earlier. I'll try & figure it out tomorrow.

To very briefly summarise - there is a situation where fuse #2 kills the downstairs lights & there is a situation where it doesn't.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

..............To very briefly summarise - there is a situation where fuse #2 kills the downstairs lights & there is a situation where it doesn't.

That's the worrying bit. The light switching being all over the place is a nuisance but not a risk to life and limb provided that when the relevant circuit breaker is de-energised (switched off) the lights actually go off. The purpose of yon test was to find out which MCB was providing power in the situation where fuse #2 doesn't kill the downstairs light- if it turns out that a 32A MCB is powering a 1mm lighting circuit then aside from other issues you have a major fire risk right there.

Your builder needs to sort this first thing. His 'electrician' needs to provide some documentation of his/her work. And the rest still stands. Padlock his horse to the gutter downpipe til he gets it right.

 

[Echo the husky]

Just out of interest, are we all counting the MCBs the same way? They are numbered counting away from the main switch so your 2no. 6amp MCBs are in positions 5 and 6...

 

[PBC_1966]

To very briefly summarise - there is a situation where fuse #2 kills the downstairs lights & there is a situation where it doesn't.

This confirms that there is some cross-connection between that circuit and another. It's most likely crossed with the other lighting circuit at a switch somewhere, but by the sound of this "electrician" it could be crossed with almost anything.

If you can get the switches into the position where turning off MCB #2 does not extinguish the lights, try turning off the other lighting MCB and see if they go out then,

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Can i ask - is there ANY situation at all, even if unlikely but not impossible, that when i've done a test with one sequence & got 1 result (such as when 1 switch operated upstairs landing but also kitchen x2 & diner) & then i'm 99.9999% sure i've done that exact same test later on ... but got a different result (such as when it did those exact same lights ... PLUS the living room light), is there any chance at all that i may not be imagining it & that one sequence could've changed like that?
Or is it impossible & that i must've done something different somewhere along the line for that living room light to come on?

Such as i could've sworn the upstairs landing light was coming on earlier but only later on did i notice how it has started to look quit dim so i went to inspect & found the landing light was out but the box bedroom light was now on with the downstairs switch.

Because this is constantly making me doubt myself.

& like you said - my concern is an electrical fire somewhere along the line.


freddo - if you look at the control box, fusebox, control unit (what should i be calling it?) then from left to right is how i call it. So the left most fuse is #1, the next one in with an LT written above it is #2 - the one we're talking about, the one with the blue behind it is #3 & so on with the right most (closest to the total on/off switch) being #6.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Just out of interest, are we all counting the MCBs the same way? They are numbered counting away from the main switch so your 2no. 6amp MCBs are in positions 5 and 6...

Good odds our man is counting from the left- in the absence of anything definitive it is standard behaviour wherever words are written from left to right.

Came across a CU the other day whose manufacturers were obviously hedging their bets- earth bar was numbered left to right (ascending), neutral bars numbered right to left. Very messy.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

If you can get the switches into the position where turning off MCB #2 does not extinguish the lights, try turning off the other lighting MCB and see if they go out then,

Yeah i get it now - this is what you guys were saying earlier isn't it Well, i did tell you to make me feel stupid earlier but at least i've got there in the end.

It's very late & i'm about to call it a night as i'm up in 5 hours so i'll have to do that tomorrow.

And i'll keep you guys posted


Thanks for your patience - all of you