Interesting and ta for the update, I'm wondering now if there's a faulty switch or a short between wires somewhere on the lighting circuit. Mind, none of that should have caused the loss of power to the burglar alarm. Almost certainly not solvable by remote control- case of having to be there and waggle wires. May also be coincidence that the alarm lost supply and the switching went to pot.......
Electrics setup all strange after electrician has been out. Riddle inside (stiff drink needed)...
- Thread starter Mr. Clueless
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Doggit
Bloody hell, I've seldom seen a thread get so seriously out of hand. And yes, I've come in at a late stage, and things are progressing, but I think a degree of common sense needs injecting - there are too many people trying to prove they are right, and forgetting to keep things concise.
Firstly, we should be dealing with Mrs clueless, as she's got a better grasp of things.
Whoever put the mcbs in the fuse box should have been professional enough to put in a new fuse box, and even over-ridden the owner if he'd insisted on a cheap job; this alone would have solved the RCD issue and brought things up to spec, and it should be done at the next stage of the work. And then run a separate fuse to the alarm when it's done, so that it can isolated easily rather than taking the fuse out of the unswitched fuse spur.
When the three new sockets were put in, the "sparkie" obviously just cut into an existing circuit, that's why there's no new wires going back to the fuse box.
The down stairs hall lights are a 2 way circuit and are fed from the upstairs ring circuit, which is why it doesn't turn off when the downstairs switch is turned off.
I suspect that light are coming on when when the wrong light are switched on, because the circuit has been cut into, and the wires crossed over. Alternatively (but doubtfully) a feed has been taken from the wrong side of a ceiling light fitting, or crossed wires in one. It's just going to take a good electrician to check over the circuits rather than us following the overly complicated combinations that Mr C's been giving us.
The sparks brought in by the builder possibly isn't a registered sparkie, so his details should be checked out. If he's not registered, then all costs are down to the builder to put things right. And having seen what he's done so far, I wouldn't have him back in, even if he is registered. And if the builder keep insisting that his lad hasn't caused an issue, then Mr C is just going to have to get someone in to do circuit test, and then use it to argue with the builder and take it to the small claims court, or just put it down to experience and swallow the costs.
Firstly, we should be dealing with Mrs clueless, as she's got a better grasp of things.
Whoever put the mcbs in the fuse box should have been professional enough to put in a new fuse box, and even over-ridden the owner if he'd insisted on a cheap job; this alone would have solved the RCD issue and brought things up to spec, and it should be done at the next stage of the work. And then run a separate fuse to the alarm when it's done, so that it can isolated easily rather than taking the fuse out of the unswitched fuse spur.
When the three new sockets were put in, the "sparkie" obviously just cut into an existing circuit, that's why there's no new wires going back to the fuse box.
The down stairs hall lights are a 2 way circuit and are fed from the upstairs ring circuit, which is why it doesn't turn off when the downstairs switch is turned off.
I suspect that light are coming on when when the wrong light are switched on, because the circuit has been cut into, and the wires crossed over. Alternatively (but doubtfully) a feed has been taken from the wrong side of a ceiling light fitting, or crossed wires in one. It's just going to take a good electrician to check over the circuits rather than us following the overly complicated combinations that Mr C's been giving us.
The sparks brought in by the builder possibly isn't a registered sparkie, so his details should be checked out. If he's not registered, then all costs are down to the builder to put things right. And having seen what he's done so far, I wouldn't have him back in, even if he is registered. And if the builder keep insisting that his lad hasn't caused an issue, then Mr C is just going to have to get someone in to do circuit test, and then use it to argue with the builder and take it to the small claims court, or just put it down to experience and swallow the costs.
Sadly what we have is one too many people thinking that it's OK to advise people to break the law because that accords with their nihilistic ideology of nothing ever changing and no improvements ever happening.
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As one who has installed a few panels and systems, if the on-board fuse is popping, there must be a problem, a short, with the PCB or the wiring out in the field.
If there was smoke coming from it, it was inadvisable of the spark to re-energise it.
If there was smoke coming from it, it was inadvisable of the spark to re-energise it.
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You must have more spare time than Daniel Sturridge, if you are an electrician. Customer asks for 3 sockets and you tell him you are replacing his CU, whether he wants one or not. why not demand he has a ful rewire. As a professional, the electrician has more onus than a diyer to comply with 7671 and it has been pointed out that the circuit should have been RCD protected. This can be done replacing the existing CU and rewiring the alarm circuit.
Mr C is working with his builder to resolve this, so I think the Small Claims Court is a future consideration.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
Fitting a new consumer unit, though always desirable, can sometimes open up a can of worms and isn't always the best things to do. Sometimes a standalone RCD in an enclosure protecting the circuit in question can prevent masses of potential fault-finding if the rest of the installation is a bit ropey.
I feel we over-complicating and over-guessing all of this.
From the information given, the known work carried out was a few extra sockets, and perhaps some fiddling about in the consumer unit, for whatever reason.
Though we can guess what may have happened, we won't solve this from the info given.
Only someone on site, and the original electrician, can determine what's been altered and what needs changing.
Hopefully we will have an update from Mr Clueless once the electrician has been.
Now we're getting more details, something like this sounds quite likely: Nail goes through a couple of lighting cables causing the interaction between lighting circuits already described, and at the same time pierces an alarm cable putting 240V onto the alarm circuitry (in which case, be very careful handling anything in the alarm panel even if the power to it is supposedly off).
It's really time for a thorough examination of the installation, especially around any and all areas where work has been carried out, isolating circuits and testing. An insulation test between mains and alarm wiring could be interesting.
More bloody guessing.
All any of us can do, we're not there.
Exactly.
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Right, update time....
* The thing with the smoke. That is a breakdown in communication. Probably between my wife & I. I could've sworn she said to me smoke came from the alarm control panel. But she says now it just smelled like smoke. Whether she said it or not, whether i misunderstood or not .... apologies to you guys. I just wanted to clear that one up real quick.
* The electrician (not the one who did the work .... their boss) tried to fix the problem. They need more time & will be coming out again. They had light fittings down & switches off the wall. My wife had fitted a light fitting in the living room. He did [something] with the wiring. He said she hadn't done anything wrong, but there was some sort of wiring in there that "wasn't quite right" which he sorted out but obviously hasn't fixed the problem. He was constantly up & down the stairs with these light fittings & switches off trying to identify the problem.
* Regards the RCD (& this is something sparkwright just commented on) - he said we could have a new CU at approx £300, but it isn't vital at this moment in time. He did however tell my wife that this itself could throw up all manner of faults as the new CU's are more sensitive than the original ones (he suspects our current CU is the original) which would then need to be identified (& more cost!). Our alarm chap has since been out & while on the topic he echo'd this & advised caution when it came to installing a new CU for this very reason.
* Regards the alarm panel & the lighting wiring in general ........... they said the original electrician couldn't have effected the lighting circuit as there is no lighting circuit wiring underneath the floor. Likewise the wiring from the alarm control panel does not run underground. It comes out of the alarm control panel & goes UP.
The alarm guy came out (after the electrical boss proved the panel WAS getting power) & took a look at the control panel. Story short there, the alarm guy said a fuse on the PCB had gone & it had blown its own power supply. He had just done a few of these (Scantronic 9448+) in the area with similar/same problem. He suspects with the recent power cuts (floods at the start of the month) and then with us turning the fuses on-off-on-off-on-off while trying to work out this lighting sequence problem - this could've lead to the alarm panel frying itself.
So he installed a new control panel (different brand) on Wednesday and so far so good as far as the alarm is concerned.
* The electrician (boss) thinks he has whittled it down to a light switch that is in the living room which controls the lights in the (extension) diner. He needs to come out to do more fault finding but he says that the electrical work that was done when the extension was built was a bit slapdash kind of thing. The extension was built in 2000. What the specific issue is with the wiring i don't know but he said it's not right.
So i think that's pretty much all i know so far. He's due to come out in a few weeks so i'll update you more when i know more.
And as ever, thanks for your help throughout
* The thing with the smoke. That is a breakdown in communication. Probably between my wife & I. I could've sworn she said to me smoke came from the alarm control panel. But she says now it just smelled like smoke. Whether she said it or not, whether i misunderstood or not .... apologies to you guys. I just wanted to clear that one up real quick.
* The electrician (not the one who did the work .... their boss) tried to fix the problem. They need more time & will be coming out again. They had light fittings down & switches off the wall. My wife had fitted a light fitting in the living room. He did [something] with the wiring. He said she hadn't done anything wrong, but there was some sort of wiring in there that "wasn't quite right" which he sorted out but obviously hasn't fixed the problem. He was constantly up & down the stairs with these light fittings & switches off trying to identify the problem.
* Regards the RCD (& this is something sparkwright just commented on) - he said we could have a new CU at approx £300, but it isn't vital at this moment in time. He did however tell my wife that this itself could throw up all manner of faults as the new CU's are more sensitive than the original ones (he suspects our current CU is the original) which would then need to be identified (& more cost!). Our alarm chap has since been out & while on the topic he echo'd this & advised caution when it came to installing a new CU for this very reason.
* Regards the alarm panel & the lighting wiring in general ........... they said the original electrician couldn't have effected the lighting circuit as there is no lighting circuit wiring underneath the floor. Likewise the wiring from the alarm control panel does not run underground. It comes out of the alarm control panel & goes UP.
The alarm guy came out (after the electrical boss proved the panel WAS getting power) & took a look at the control panel. Story short there, the alarm guy said a fuse on the PCB had gone & it had blown its own power supply. He had just done a few of these (Scantronic 9448+) in the area with similar/same problem. He suspects with the recent power cuts (floods at the start of the month) and then with us turning the fuses on-off-on-off-on-off while trying to work out this lighting sequence problem - this could've lead to the alarm panel frying itself.
So he installed a new control panel (different brand) on Wednesday and so far so good as far as the alarm is concerned.
* The electrician (boss) thinks he has whittled it down to a light switch that is in the living room which controls the lights in the (extension) diner. He needs to come out to do more fault finding but he says that the electrical work that was done when the extension was built was a bit slapdash kind of thing. The extension was built in 2000. What the specific issue is with the wiring i don't know but he said it's not right.
So i think that's pretty much all i know so far. He's due to come out in a few weeks so i'll update you more when i know more.
And as ever, thanks for your help throughout
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