Electrics...sign off!!

[MrsGarner]

HELP

I have just bought a new house and my father in law has insisted doing the electrics...apparently he is fully qualified to do so BUT isnt registered to sgn it off...

in his words " i cant sign it off, its up to you if you have it signed off but personally i wouldnt"

this scares me A LOT....Ive paid a lot for this house and (touch wood) if there were ever an electrical fire i wouldnt be covered on my insurance and thus could be left with no house and hefty mortgage to pay.....

i was just wondering....do electricians sign off work they havent done?

As yet only cables have been laid nothing has been bonded in yet and the consumer unit has not been fixed....

any help appreciated.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

HELP

I have just bought a new house and my father in law has insisted doing the electrics...apparently he is fully qualified to do so BUT isnt registered to sgn it off...

What do you mean by "fully qualified"?

Can he legitimately issue an EIC for the work?

this scares me A LOT....Ive paid a lot for this house and (touch wood) if there were ever an electrical fire i wouldnt be covered on my insurance and thus could be left with no house and hefty mortgage to pay.....

As long as he was qualified to do the work, and certified it from a Wiring Regulations POV, then that's all the insurance company should care about - the fact that it wasn't notified should be irrelevant.

i was just wondering....do electricians sign off work they havent done?

No.

At least, if any do, you wouldn't want them to.

 

[flameport]

If by 'sign off' you mean notification for building regulations, then it's already too late. The options are notify building control before you start, or use a member of a competent persons scheme to do all of the work and the notification.

Regardless of that, the circuits must still be designed, installed and properly tested before being connected to power.

 

[f0rmula]

If by 'sign off' you mean notification for building regulations, then it's already too late. The options are notify building control before you start, or use a member of a competent persons scheme to do all of the work and the notification.

Technically, you're supposed to notify before you start, although I'm not sure it matters.

I suspect if you go to your counties building control, put out a buildings notice now, you can get the inspector round for a first fix inspetion pretty much immediately. Then final fix/testing after you've plastered. Mine was £100 on top of my existing buildings notice.

 

[MrsGarner]

if i am honest i know nothing about electrics apart from how to change switches and put up new lights.... the circuits, regulations i know nothing about.

all i know is that my father in law has recently gone on "courses" and supposedly passed relevant tests.

my husband and i were under the impression from the "forced" nature of us having to have him rewire our whole house. that it would all be done with the proper certifications, regulations etc etc.

i only found out yesterday after waiting 3 weeks for him to start and now after 3 days of work (that is by no means finished) that he cant "sign it off" his exact words....if im honest I have no idea what this really means

it really very very depressing.

as far as I know he cant issue a EIC

 

[riveralt]

Not sure where you are in Essex but this is Chelmsford's Building Control as an example:
http://www.chelmsford.gov.uk/building/regs

Go to here and click on your district:

http://www.essexbsa.org/

Perhaps a phone call to them will allay or confirm your fears.

 

[leeco]

if i am honest i know nothing about electrics apart from how to change switches and put up new lights.... the circuits, regulations i know nothing about.

all i know is that my father in law has recently gone on "courses" and supposedly passed relevant tests.

my husband and i were under the impression from the "forced" nature of us having to have him rewire our whole house. that it would all be done with the proper certifications, regulations etc etc.

i only found out yesterday after waiting 3 weeks for him to start and now after 3 days of work (that is by no means finished) that he cant "sign it off" his exact words....if im honest I have no idea what this really means

it really very very depressing.

as far as I know he cant issue a EIC

If he knows how to use testing equipment which if he's been on the right courses he should then he can fill in a EIC and notify BC and give it to them at the end of the job but you would have to pay B/C

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... my father in law has recently gone on "courses" ...

Oh dear.

That does not sound like he is actually an electrician.

Is he? Does he work as one? Has he been doing so for years? Surely your husband must know what his Dad does for a living?

and supposedly passed relevant tests.

Can you find out what they are?

If he is a proper electrician, with the right City & Guilds qualifications, he won't mind telling you, because he would be in complete agreement that a house rewire should not be done by the other sort of "electrician" - the sort that goes on a few mickey-mouse courses and takes a few mickey-mouse tests and thinks that makes him an electrician.

i only found out yesterday after waiting 3 weeks for him to start and now after 3 days of work (that is by no means finished) that he cant "sign it off" his exact words....if im honest I have no idea what this really means

It might just be the Building Regulations certification, or it might be worse.

it really very very depressing.

And has the potential for a big family upset.

as far as I know he cant issue a EIC

If that's true he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a house rewire. But it might not be - there's uncertainty about whether he's a real electrician who is simply not registered to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations.

I suggest a temporary halt to the work until you find out just what he is - if you need to get a proper electrician in you will find that easier if things are left as you describe.

 

[ericmark]

There are five electrical certificates that you can get for the house. Some can be down loaded here for free.
1) Minor Works (You will not want this one free down load)
2) Installation Certificate (You will want this and it's a free down load see above)
3) Electrical Installation Condition Report (You will not want this one it's used for existing installations again free down load)
4) Completion Certificate (This can only be issued by local authority building control and shows the work has been registered with them.)
5) Compliance Certificate (This is similar to above and issued by scheme member electricians)

To get a "Completion Certificate" you need either a Electrical Installation Certificate or a Electrical Installation Condition Report you can either have the person doing the work issue a Electrical Installation Certificate or get another electrician to issue a Electrical Installation Condition Report the former is the better approach.

For emergency work you can tell the LABC after the event but in most cases which will clearly include yours you should inform the LABC before the work starts. For a full rewire the fee is not too bad it's based on the value of work done but first band is £2000 so for small jobs it costs the same as large jobs.

The LABC can either accept the Electrical Installation Certificate issued by person doing the work or if they are not satisfied that the person is able to test their own work charge for a third party to do testing or do it them selves.

How easy to get the work passed depends on the LABC. With the work my son and I did they accepted my signature but not my sons which was a bit odd as we both had C&G 2391 and C&G 2381 (Now 2382) it seemed they did not know what they were. So it was the fact I had a degree in electronic and electrical engineering which tipped the balance and got them to accept my signature.

Insurance is again a little odd as anyone doing work should have PLI so anything resulting from work they do should in theory be claimed from their insurance not the general house insurance. However when everything went wrong with my daughter and the handy man she employed did some poor workmanship the insurance still paid for some one to come out and correct it. This sort of thing would vary between insurers but unless the inspector can clearly see the work was sub-standard likely they would pay out.

I had in my house some problems over a water leak where the inspector at first thought it was due to sub-standard work but then changed his mind.

The fact you have an installation certificate will likely show the work is not sub-standard but it also shows it should have been registered with the LABC so a double edged sword.

It is the home owner not the electrician doing the work who is responsible for notifying the council so for the electrician to complete the installation certificate does not cause him any problems. He could claim he thought you had informed the council as the council does not issue a permit to work it was at least in my case a verbal go ahead. Only reason not to issue a installation certificate is sub-standard workmanship so if he will not issue one then don't allow him to do the work.

Rewiring is not simply sticking wires in and connecting them up it does involve some planning designing and testing. To do this one needs some test equipment although those who do it on a regular basis I am sure could fudge up some results.

In 2008 the requirements changed a lot and now one has to fit RCD protection to most of the circuits which means one also has to test the RCD and the meters are not cheap. To hire around £75 for the week. So cost of meter hire needs to be included if the guy wiring does not have them.

So I expect to get all the paperwork will cost around £300 which for a £2000 job is not really that bad.

 

[MrsGarner]

Thank you all for the information. I will try and find out via my husband exactly what he can and cant do.

i really really appreciate all of the information in your replies.

this is extremely helpful.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

When electrical work is being installed in domestic properties, that requires to be notified (which yours does) then certain procedures should be followed.

Without having full knowledge of the course and experience your father-in-law has, would be hard to judge whether he should be performing this task. But we will put that to one side at the moment.

The procedures required if the installation cannot be self certified are:
Notification to building controls prior to any work starting, then once permission has been granted to go ahead, work can start.
It maybe that the building controls inspector would like to visit the property to view the installation whilst being constructed and on completion.
As part of the certificate,they will ask for inspection schedules and test schedules to be made, it could be that your Father-in-Law is able to do this.
Once they are happy that the installation complies and is safe, they will issue you a building controls compliance notice.
If your Father-In-Law has been on an electrical course worth it's salts, this information would have been given to him, if he was taking notice!

 

[ericmark]

Once they are happy that the installation complies and is safe, they will issue you a building controls compliance notice.

When a scheme member issues the certificate it's called compliance when the LABC issues its called completion. I also kept making this mistake it is rather confusing having two different names for same thing.

The problem is different LABC's take different factors into consideration when deciding if the guy doing the work has the skill required. My son could sign the installation certificate in Liverpool with C&G2391 & 2381 but not in Flintshire.

So it's not only dependent on qualifications but also on the whim of the building inspector. It was in the early days of Part P and things may have moved on but does not matter what we say on here it's all down to the inspector you get as to how easy or hard it is to jump through the hoops.

 

[JohnW2]

When a scheme member issues the certificate it's called compliance when the LABC issues its called completion. I also kept making this mistake it is rather confusing having two different names for same thing.

It's actually potentially more 'confusing' than that, at least in England, since (according to the new App Doc P, hence not applicable in Wales)what you call the 'Completion Certificate' (for work not undertaken by a self-certifying electrician) is actually called a 'Final Certificate' if issued by an 'approved inspector' (and that doesn't mean a 'third-party certifier, which is a totally different, and uncertain, matter!!) rather than by the LABC themselves.

However, I would question whether having these three different names for very similar certificates is necessarily 'confusing' - maybe they have deliberately been given different names so as to indicate that they have come from three different sources, and thereby perhaps reduce potential confusion?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I recall my first inspection by LABCs, the officer knew next to JS about electrics, he had a little nicky flip pad, that just so happened to be from previous editions. I recall mentioning this to him, and it became apparent he was actually a plumber! Which was nice!

 

[SimonH2]

If notifying via LABC, I'd suggest not giving them any clue that you've actually started, but just send in the application. Then wait a reasonable time before telling them you're ready for first fix inspection - ie long enough to have actually done the work after applying. If they did suggest it was a suspiciously short time, then you could mutter something about having started chasing out in advance to save costs.

My LABC charges 50% extra for regularisation, though whether they'd class your situation as regularisation might depend on whether the inspector you ask is on a target for fee income.