English what do we call it?

[EFLImpudence]

As to off not being a way yes I would agree normally with something like a rotary switch we would say and off. So my oven has a 9 way and off switch.

Talk about two way switching and we all think of the double switch arrangement where two switches both control the same lamp. However I would consider two way to be on and off. i.e. one way is on the other is off.

So from what has been said I would conclude calling it 2 way lighting may not be 100% correct but is acceptable. However calling it 3 way lighting when an intermediate switch is added is not.

As I said you have to distinguish between switches and switching.
I suppose two-way, or three-way, lighting could be unclear.

On a lighting circuit, for example, calling it -
three-way switching which employs two two-way switches and an intermediate seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[JohnW2]

As I said you have to distinguish between switches and switching. ...On a lighting circuit, for example, calling it - three-way switching which employs two two-way switches and an intermediate seems quite reasonable to me.

A problem, and potential confusion, there is that you are using the word "way" to mean two totally dfferent things. I have to say that, have been brought up in electronics circles, had I not become aware of the jargon which had evolved in the world of electricians, I would have assumed that "N-way switching" was the functionality one got by using "N-way switches".

One of the problems of using "way" to denote the number of switches in the circuit is that it doesn't fully define what one is talking about - although having two 2-way switches plus one intermediate switch is one way of having 3 switches in a circuit (your "3-way switching"), it is not the only possible arrangement of three switches.

Even if I regard it as illogical, I certainly wouldn't suggest that we should attempt to change the "2-way switching" jargon, since that's so well-established that any change would merely increase confusion. However, I've rarely heard the phrase "3-way switching" used in the way you're using it, so I wonder how 'well-established' that is?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

A problem, and potential confusion, there is that you are using the word "way" to mean two totally dfferent things.

It's English. That's what we do.

One of the problems of using "way" to denote the number of switches in the circuit is that it doesn't fully define what one is talking about - although having two 2-way switches plus one intermediate switch is one way of having 3 switches in a circuit (your "3-way switching"), it is not the only possible arrangement of three switches.

I am not certain what you have in mind but it's the outcome, not the method.

Even if I regard it as illogical, I certainly wouldn't suggest that we should attempt to change the "2-way switching" jargon, since that's so well-established that any change would merely increase confusion. However, I've rarely heard the phrase "3-way switching" used in the way you're using it, so I wonder how 'well-established' that is?

I didn't say it was well established but if you accept that "two-way switching" is understandable, albeit illogical, I fail to see how "three-way switching" could not be.

I could disagree with the term 'way' meaning a position in a consumer unit but there it is.
We have two-way switches, two-way switching and two ways of wiring it, two-way consumer units - any others?
As long as what is meant is known, as with language in general, what else matters - apart from correctness, that is?

As long as no one starts writing 'two-weigh', 'too-whey'

 

[JohnW2]

- although having two 2-way switches plus one intermediate switch is one way of having 3 switches in a circuit (your "3-way switching"), it is not the only possible arrangement of three switches.

I am not certain what you have in mind but it's the outcome, not the method.

That's actually my point - the terminology used should really describe the funtionality, not the number of switches. One other functional possibility which I 'had in mind' was a master ('on/off') switch in series with a standard "2-way" switching circuit - still three switches (hence "3-way switching" per your terminology?), but different functionality.

I didn't say it was well established but if you accept that "two-way switching" is understandable, albeit illogical ....

It's only understandable to me because I have learned that this is well-established electrician's jargon. Were that not the case, I would probably have assumed that "2-way switching" referred to a 2-way switch which diverted power to one of two alternative loads - just as a 2-way or 3-way fluid or gas valve diverts fluid or gas in one of 2 or 3 directions.

... I fail to see how "three-way switching" could not be.

As above, "2-way switching" is only understandable to me because I have learned that it is well-estanblished jargon. I haven't (yet!) learned that the same is true of "3-way switching", so I wouldn't be sure what it was meant to mean.

I could disagree with the term 'way' meaning a position in a consumer unit but there it is.

True, but there is not the same scope for confusion, then. I know what I normally understand by "3-way switch", so it's very tempting to assume that "3-way switching" is related to that.

As long as what is meant is known, as with language in general, what else matters - apart from correctness, that is?

I agree - but until this thread appeared, I for one would not have been at all sure what "3-way switching" meant. I probably would have guessed correctly (by extrapolation from "2-way switching"), but guesswork is not quite the same thing (or as desirable a thing) as 'understanding'!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's actually my point - the terminology used should really describe the funtionality, not the number of switches. One other functional possibility which I 'had in mind' was a master ('on/off') switch in series with a standard "2-way" switching circuit - still three switches (hence "3-way switching" per your terminology?), but different functionality.

But that's not what I understand as three- (or any number) way switching.

I'm not sure what that would be called, other than describing it as you have.
Also, you include in the description, "2-way switching", which, I think, verifies my point.

It's only understandable to me because I have learned that this is well-established electrician's jargon. Were that not the case, I would probably have assumed that "2-way switching" referred to a 2-way switch which diverted power to one of two alternative loads - just as a 2-way or 3-way fluid or gas valve diverts fluid or gas in one of 2 or 3 directions.

But we are talking electrics and that is what it means.

As above, "2-way switching" is only understandable to me because I have learned that it is well-estanblished jargon. I haven't (yet!) learned that the same is true of "3-way switching", so I wouldn't be sure what it was meant to mean.

True, but there is not the same scope for confusion, then. I know what I normally understand by "3-way switch", so it's very tempting to assume that "3-way switching" is related to that.

Not if you agree with what two-way switching means.

I agree - but until this thread appeared, I for one would not have been at all sure what "3-way switching" meant. I probably would have guessed correctly (by extrapolation from "2-way switching"),

Precisely.

If, as in this context, 'way' means, as you, yourself, said, position, as in place or location, then is it not apparent?
That is, amongst electricians.
Obviously, were it overheard in a pub, you may not know what was meant.

but guesswork is not quite the same thing (or as desirable a thing) as 'understanding'!

No, but what do you do about other terms of which you are not sure.

 

[JohnW2]

But that's not what I understand as three- (or any number) way switching.

I know it's not, and I suppose that illustrates my point. Unlike "2-way switching", which has come to have a very well-established meaning in this context (and may well even be 'defined'as such in some books etc.), I don't think (but may be wrong) that the same is true of "3-way switching" - which is why I'm unsure as to whether your understanding, other electricians' understanding and my understanding (or not) of it are all going to all be the same.

but guesswork is not quite the same thing (or as desirable a thing) as 'understanding'!

No, but what do you do about other terms of which you are not sure.

Well, if it's in any field that matters (and that certainly includes things electrical), I certainly wouldn't just guess! - I would take steps to ascertain the meaning.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As I said you have to distinguish between switches and switching.

It's actually all a bit ironic. I've just tried some Googling. If one Googles for "3-way switch" (with the quotes) one gets any number of hits on the sort of circuit (2 x 2-way switches plus one intermediate switch) which you understand "3-way switching" to mean. However, if one Googles for "3-way switching", one gets hardly any electrical hits, but many for 3-way fluid/gas valves, providing 'true 3-way' functionality such as I have described.

So it ain't necesasrily as clear as you have been suggesting

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

So it ain't necesasrily as clear as you have been suggesting

It is to me.

I shall put forward THIS and THIS to support my argument.

Excluding our colonial cousins, are there any equally esteemed oponents?

 

[JohnW2]

I shall put forward THIS and THIS to support my argument.

I have to say that it hadn't even occurred to me that you might be the only person to use the "3-way switching" terminology, so I'm hardly surprised that you have found two supporters to cite! I'm sure there would be many more, even if the terminology were not 'well-established'.

You presumably are not totally happy with the second of the sources you cite, since the article starts off:

"Wiring a 3 way switch can be difficult if you do not know how ..."

... thereby seemingly indicating that even they are party to the confusion, and breaking your own rule about distinguishing between 'switches' and 'switching'

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

That is clearly a misprint/mistake as the rest of the article is correct.
In any case whatever the argument no three-way switches are used (American term for two-way switch)

Try googling three way switching.

 

[JohnW2]

That is clearly a misprint/mistake as the rest of the article is correct. In any case whatever the argument no three-way switches are used...

Quite so.

Try googling three way switching.

I will. Thanks.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would repeat since we use a two way switch to wire a single lamp controlled by two switches to refer to the circuit as a two way lighting circuit may not be correct but is an understandable term.

We however don't use three way switches to wire a single lamp controlled by three switches so to call it three way switching would make no sense.

We all know two way switching should refer to a single switch working either of two items or two option on a single item. So a fan which can either blow air out or suck air in would be worked by a two way switch. For example an intermediate switch which on a DC supply would work well as a reversing switch.

I would consider a three way light switch as one which as done in many houses abroad where they used discharge lighting well before us have the option of 1/3, 2/3 or all lights switched on in a room.

 

[ericmark]

Oh it get worse. Yes I goggled three way switching seems it's an American name for using two switches to control one lamp.

Four way switching is when an intermediate switch is used.

No wonder American methods caused the globule recession. Clearly the Americans can't count.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would repeat since we use a two way switch to wire a single lamp controlled by two switches to refer to the circuit as a two way lighting circuit may not be correct but is an understandable term.

Apart from the fact that we use two two-way switches, yes Q.E.D.

We however don't use three way switches to wire a single lamp controlled by three switches so to call it three way switching would make no sense.

That's why it is three-way switching using three switches.
Of course it makes sense.
You could use a single two-way switch, or an intermediate, to control one light. The two things are separate.

We all know two way switching should refer to a single switch working either of two items or two option on a single item. So a fan which can either blow air out or suck air in would be worked by a two way switch.

But it doesn't.

For example an intermediate switch which on a DC supply would work well as a reversing switch.

You wouldn't call that intermediate switching.

I would consider a three way light switch as one which as done in many houses abroad where they used discharge lighting well before us have the option of 1/3, 2/3 or all lights switched on in a room.

That is a three-way light switch.
'Way', in this case, refers to the number of ways in the switch (excluding off) not the number of places where the appliance can be switched.

Nearly all words in English have more than one meaning and, obviously, we have to know to which meaning is being referred in order to understand.

Unfortunately, this seems almost as bad/good as 'wicket' in cricket.

 

[ericmark]

It would depend on the way one is taught. The way I was taught is a switch has a number of ways and a number of poles and the way I ordered from people like RS Components and Farnel one needed to explain what one required in that way.

There is no way I would have called a simple three connection change over switch as a three way switch. Neither would I call two switches controlling a single lamp as three way switching.

Also I call the engine lid on my car a bonnet not a hood, and the protective device around the front of my car is a bumper not a fender yet the one on the boat I call a fender.

We have to remember we can all build web pages and those who write them often have no idea of what they are writing their field is building a web site not knowing if what is on the site is right or wrong. Because the Americans seem to write most of the sites there are many American ideas on them which are very often not what is done in the UK.

Push starting cars for example we would not dream of doing that here.

Look in RS for a 3 way switch after 81 items I found the first light switch listed and that was "White 10AX 3 Gang 2 Way Switch" this

is a 3 way switch. We have poles and ways in a switch and if you don't name it correct you will get the wrong item.

Putting is simple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching has got it wrong as far as UK goes.