Enlighten me please- Ban/Ad/Crafty/John/RF

[sparky40]

Can anybody help me get my head around test certificates please ?
If, as a 'competent person' scheme member , a person can test a complete installation , and understand the test results then why can they not issue a periodic ? A longer visual inspection maybe, but test results explain the circuits characteristics, (and so condition).
Therefore how can the same person test thier own installs ? Maybe finding earth clamps and the like is thought to be beyond thier capabilities !!!!

So are they 'competent' or not ????

Or is there another course needed to know how to fill in a different format test sheet, {another 3-day £500 farce ?}? !!!!


Whilst I'm here is this Part P, Registration is getting us anywhere ?
"Scheme" runners who are just raking it in, getting us all to sign up and do courses that will not stop punters being able to buy from sockets to meter tails ,and getting someone who knows someone to do the job,(if not themselves). No certification and no change.

Cheers All.

 

[Adam_151]

To issue a PIR you don't have to be under any scheme, as long as your competant to do it, and your customer beleives you, then thats all fine

(professional imdemnity insurance is a very good idea too)

If you are asking why the likes of the niceic don't let DI members use red PIR certs, I belive it is because you need greater knowledge etc, to evalulate risks etc.

For example undersized earths (say 1mm on a RFC), you might know you wouldn't install one that small, but you can't comdemn something that is already installed on that basis, you might have to use the adiabatic equation plus information from the MCB maker (or at least mark it down as a 3 and note that such a calculation and look up of data would be be needed) to see if it complies or not

The point I'm trying to make I think, is for PIR you need to know that A,B,D, and F are acceptable, but C,E,G and H are not (judge how dangerous each of them are), but for your own work you just need to know that A is acceptable becuase thats what you are installing for example

 

[securespark]

Personally, if a ring with 1mm2 cpc passes in terms of EFLI, I ok it.

 

[dingbat]

Hi Sparky. You may be confusing two different things here.

Competent persons self-certification schemes were created especially to deal with the inclusion of electrical installation work into the Building Regulations. You don't need to belong to such a scheme in order to ply your trade, but you do if you want to be able to work without the direct approval/supervision of building control.

PIRs are not the concern of the Building Regulations and so do not come within the scope of any of the self-certification schemes.

It is up to an organisation how it assesses, regulates and controls its members. In the case of the NICEIC they do not assess a Domestic Installer's ability to carry out PIRs (which, as Adam says, requires a greater experience and knowledge than does installation) hence they do not give you access to the standard red PIR forms. You need to be a full Approved Contractor, which is how they would prefer all electricians to register (as opposed to kitchen fitters, gas fitters, etc).

But there is nothing to stop you carrying out PIRs if you deem that you are suitably competent, experienced and qualified. It's just that you need to make sure your client doesn't insist on a red, logoed, NIC form, as some do.

However, the NICEIC have recognised that many DIs are actually experienced electricians who have opted for DI because they only do domestic work. The NIC have also targetted landlords as a potential source of revenue in complying with the Housing Act 2004 which just came into force. So, with effect from next month they will be allowing suitably competent DIs to purchase numbered, Domestic PIR forms bearing the logo.

As for whether it's working, opinions differ, depending on your agenda, but I find the majority of my customers are aware. And just lately I have seen a big increase in requests for work to bring a house up to spec for/during a sale. I'd say I am a lot better off for it.

 

[Steve]

re. the title of this thread . . .

you're alright asking me, i'm not even a spark, i just know a lot of the theory behind electrickery.

 

[scousespark]

There are 3 levels of DI within the NICEIC, with level A being somebody in employment as a spark but only doing domestic work. The other levels cover people who do some electrical work as part of their job. These will have proved that they know enough to test the work they undertake.

In addition to these there is the Approved Contractor level for people who also do commercial work. In effect this is an extension of Level A DI.
The NIC have realised this and are soon to allow all these members to use the red forms.

As for whether Part P is working. I am an approved contractor and am finding more clients asking for Part P accreditation.

What's your background Spark, are you a member of one of the schemes or are you thinking of joining? Also, without wishing to offend, your question was aimed at a group of (knowledgeable) diyers who will have limited experience of the subject in your question. Please don't jump down my throat guys, just pointing out that there are professional sparks who have more experinec of dealing with both the NIC and Part P

 

[RF Lighting]

Also, without wishing to offend, your question was aimed at a group of (knowledgeable) diyers who will have limited experience of the subject in your question.

Just for the record, I am a qualified electrician, working for an NICEIC approved company (carying out domestic, commercial and industrial installation work)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In summary, registration with NICEIC, or any of the schemes, has nothing to do with issuing PIRs (or EICs, or MWCs).

NICEIC can impose restrictions on who can use their logo-d forms, but they cannot prevent their members, no matter what level of membership they have, from using other PIR or EIC forms if they want to.

 

[scousespark]

I wasn't being funny when I replied earlier, but the list of names were mainly diyers (who are all well capable of answering the electrical questions posted here). The OP was asking about the rules we follow and was aimed at professional sparks. I was pointing out the NICEIC and Part P stuff has different effects on us than it does on the diyers.

The problem we face is that the NICEIC has almost cornered the market when it comes to most of the we work we do. BAS is rght when he says the NIC cannot dictate the forms we use, but a lot of landlords etc ask for the red certificates. The thing that bugs me is that a firm with 20 sparks pays the same as a one man band. Also the sparks doing the install for the landlord may be so bad he wouldn't get into the NIC on his own merit, but the landlord doesn't know that.

I don't want this to turn into a slanging match and am not having a go at anybody on this site. So peace be with you all.

 

[ebee]

In summary, registration with NICEIC, or any of the schemes, has nothing to do with issuing PIRs (or EICs, or MWCs).

NICEIC can impose restrictions on who can use their logo-d forms, but they cannot prevent their members, no matter what level of membership they have, from using other PIR or EIC forms if they want to.

Correct as usual

 

[sparky40]

Hello Paul. I have done a domestic Installer full scope course with the NIC , ( city and guilds gained long ago !) and am now doing all my own work. Going through building control myself at present, as am not too sure about signing up with the NIC , and looking into joining a different 'body' maybe.