Extending Ring Main

[chapeau]

Did you read my post????

You either did or simply ignored what I said, or you didn't read my post and so are jumping on me for no reason.

I SAID THAT IF YOU ARE ADDING A SOCKET AND ITS LESS THAN 3M FROM A SINK IT IS NOTIFIABLE.

Whether you are an electrician or not is irelevant. Being an electrician does not mean you understand Part P. Some electricians do, but an electrician is not somebody I would go to for an opinion on interpreting Part P.

 

[Taylortwocities]

OK so he isn't going to add spurs. He has got spurs and he is going to

redo the kitchen electrics as there are a few spurs.

also he plans to

extend a ring main to wire the kitchen sockets properly.

All of this is notifiable work.
I don't know why you threw in

ADDING A SOCKET AND ITS LESS THAN 3M FROM A SINK IT IS NOTIFIABLE

What's that all about. You are quite right. But also if you are adding a socket in a kitchen and its more than 3m from a sink it is notifiable.
Where the F*** did 3metres come from??
Its in a kitchen
Its electrical work
Its notifiable.

End of

please

 

[ColJack]

the 3m is mentioned in the electricians guide to the building regs.. it says that in OPEN PLAN areas that contain a kitchen area ( ie bedsit flats and so on ) then the kitchen area is said to extend 3m from the edge of the sink..

but I'm with you..
if you happen to be opulent and have a kitchen that is 4m long, and the sink is on the far wall, that does not mean that you can wire the cooker and sockets on the opposite wall that is 3.4m from the edge of the sink and not notify..
A kitchen is defined by it's 4 walls.. unless it's open plan and missing one or more walls..

I've done a quick search of the building regs SI.. and "kitchen" is only mentioned 3 times.. once for something about fitting industrial ventilation systems, once in schedule 2B where it mentions "kitchens, bathrooms and special installations", and again in schedule 2B where it defines "kitchen".. none of which mention a 3m limit..
it is not defined at all in the BS7671..
so quite where the electricians guide to the building regs got the 3m from is something of a mystery to me..
must be in one of those "approved documents" that have no legal standing..

 

[Taylortwocities]

That is probably why the document is called GUIDE and not REGULATION.

In any case, Mr Hat seems to have assumed a lot about the OP's situation. Nobody has talked about room size, layout or anything. He's worked himself into a notification corner and won't come out, gracefully.

 

[ColJack]

it is.....

View media item 12593this big....
( pic is to scale.. counter tops are 600 wide.. )

he also wants to move the door over to clear the fridge...

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hmm, thats the issue with starting another post on the same subject.

But it sure looks like a kitchen to me.

 

[ColJack]

not really the same subject..
that pic was one I did when he asked in "your projects" for ideas on a new layout..

 

[chapeau]

You are quite right.

You are correct, I am.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ALL WORK IN A KITCHEN IS NOT NOTIFIABLE BUT IF YOU WANT TO PUT NEW SOCKETS WITHIN 3M OF A SINK THEN IT IS.

So does that mean that new sockets in a kitchen which are more than 3m from a sink are not notifiable?

What on earth is wrong with that?

Probably the fact that the way it is worded makes it almost inevitable that people will infer that new sockets more than 3m from a sink are not notifiable, and since that is incorrect your statement is sufficiently badly worded to be considered wrong.

That is an attempt to be helpful and is definitely factually accurate.

It's as factually accurate and as non-helpful as saying "all work in a kitchen is not notifiable, but if you want to put in brushed chrome sockets it is".

And Yes. I do see things that others do not see.

Can you tell us where you see a 3m distance as being significant?

You are quite right.

You are correct, I am.

You'd also be quite right if you said that not all work in a bathroom is notifiable, but if you add wall lights with green glass shades in Zone 2 then it is.

Useless and unhelpful, but quite right.

 

[chapeau]

Useless and unhelpful, but quite right.

I don't know why people come on here and attempt to help DIYers to stay on the right side of the law because all that generally happens is they get jumped on and told their advice is useless.

Other forums on this site don't behave like this, just this one. A shame, as there is a lot of very useful stuff on here but when it comes down to interpreting regulations then people start getting offensive.

1) You can add sockets to an existing circuit without notification everywhere.
2) Except in a few specified places, a kitchen is one.
3) A kitchen, for the purposes of this law, is that part of the room used for preparing food etc which lies within 3m of the sink.
4) Therefore you can add sockets to an existing circuit 301cm from the sink in a room used for preparing food. For the purposes of this law, that part of a room is not considered to be a kitchen.

Follow that algorithm (and do it safe) and no court in the land will convict you for breaching Part P of the building regs for failure to notify.

As I said earlier, I have no desire to argue, so I shall leave it at that.

For those who don't believe me, then please take it up with ban-all-sheds and address your ire at him.

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1014424#1014424

 

[Taylortwocities]

It is because other people come onto this site and give DIYers incorrect information.

The big item in which we disagree is your "3 metre rule" for kitchens.
The definition of a kitchen (which I have already given) is direct information from The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004. This is a statutory instrument.
This is document has no reference to 3 metres.
Read it for your self here click

Please tell us where the reference is to 3 metres from a sink and we can all then apologise. But I have asked you this several times but you haven't replied.

So, I ask again, where is the reference to 3 metres?
What document, what reference.

 

[JohnnyG]

I think he may be referring to the 3m 'guide' (Part P 0.4) which can be extended from a sink to define a kitchen's boundary in an open plan situation only.
As far as I know if a kitchen is just that and has defined walls then there is no 3m guide, no matter how big the area is

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't know why people come on here and attempt to help DIYers to stay on the right side of the law because all that generally happens is they get jumped on and told their advice is useless.

Only when their advice is useless.

And how ironic it is that you complain about being criticised, and how that sort of thing inhibits people from giving advice to help DIYers to stay on the right side of the law when you again write this:

3) A kitchen, for the purposes of this law, is that part of the room used for preparing food etc which lies within 3m of the sink.
4) Therefore you can add sockets to an existing circuit 301cm from the sink in a room used for preparing food. For the purposes of this law, that part of a room is not considered to be a kitchen.

That is wrong. It's not a question of interpretation, what you have written there is flat-out wrong, and any DIYer who acts on that advice will be on the wrong side of the law and it will be you who has put him there.

As I said earlier, I have no desire to argue, so I shall leave it at that.

A lack of desire on your part for an argument does not grant you immunity from being criticised for giving incorrect advice.

For those who don't believe me, then please take it up with ban-all-sheds and address your ire at him.

Why should they take it up with me?

It is not I who despite saying

I also read people's posts prior to pontificating, you clearly don't.

has clearly not read this properly before pontificating. I'll highlight the significant part, in the hope that you'll finally get it:

If it is a kitchen/dining room, how far does the special location extend from the food prep area?

There is no explicit definition - I believe the guideline on where the kitchen stops is 3m from the sink.

As a guide only, in open plan areas the zone of a kitchen may be considered to extend from the edge of the sink to a distance of 3m or to a nearer dividing wall.

 

[CortinaV8]

I think from reading this post you can deduce that you may as well just use the part P document as bog paper, it's open to so many different interpretations its unreal.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do you mean Approved Document P, or Part P of the Building Regulations?