extractor fans and building regs

[Markey]

are these compulsory in utility rooms or W/c's?

 

[Rob1985]

Have you read CDM Regs? http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20070320_en_6#sch2 (SCHEDULE 2, WELFARE FACILITIES)

 

[Markey]

I have now, but i am still at a loss. This document looks very commercial in the wording.

To give more background the W/c is an existing outside W/c being brought inside by building an extersion around it. It has an opening window as does the utility room that is being built.

 

[Richard C]

A kitchen, utility room, bathroom or shower room must have an extract fan in addition to any opening window but the room doesn’t need to have an opening window; a w/c only doesn’t need a fan unless there is no opening window. The regs. apply to both new builds, extensions & renovations. Have a look here:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADF_1995.pdf

Edit: forgot utility room

 

[^woody^]

THE CDM regulations have nothing to do with buildings or building regs

 

[Markey]

guys thanks for the info.

grr building control, i hate extractor fans

 

[mikric]

A w/c now also requires an extractor even if a window is fitted.
Utility only needs one if a sink is fitted.

 

[Richard C]

A w/c now also requires an extractor even if a window is fitted.
Utility only needs one if a sink is fitted.

So it does, thanks for putting me right! Been using the old version, must keep up . Couldn’t find the bit about a utility only if a sink is fitted, have you got a reference?

 

[Markey]

i think it refers to

utility room: a room containing a sink or other feature which may reasonably be expected to produce water vapour in significant quantities

from http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADF_2006.pdf

i also note

for sanitary accomodation only, as an alternative, the purge ventillation provisions (windows) given in Appendix B can be used where security is not an issue

 

[Richard C]

i think it refers to

utility room; a room containing a sink or other feature which may reasonably be expected to produce water vapour in significant quantities

So red herring then; having a sink doesn’t define weather or not it’s a utility room! If you have a washing m/c &/or tumble drier that produce water vapour but no sink it’s still --- a utility room & you will need an extractor fan.

i also note;
for sanitary accomodation only, as an alternative, the purge ventillation provisions (windows) given in Appendix B can be used where security is not an issue

So let’s get this straight then; the ODPM in their infinite wisdom update the regs. (Document F 2006) table 1.1a which would seem to indicate you must now fit an extract fan in a w/c. They then bury a statement in the text which refers to Appendix B which further specifies you can use a window instead of an extract fan.

So the regs. haven’t really changed at all as long as you have an opening window to the sizes given in the Appendix B, you don’t need a fan!

Why they have to needlessly change things & make them so bloody misleading amazes me!

 

[jeds]

Not sure that's right Richard. ADF 1.5 refers to 'Extract' ventilation whereas appendix B refers to 'Purge' ventilation. These are different things.

As far as I am aware, mechanical extract ventilation is always required to WCs whether purge ventilation is available or not.

 

[mikric]

Since earlier this year we ask for them in wc/s regardless of window/purge ventilation and only ask for one in utility rooms with a sink , as I said before. This may be interpreted in various ways with regs etc but thats my rule of thumb if you want a completion certificate from me

 

[Richard C]

Not sure that's right Richard. ADF 1.5 refers to 'Extract' ventilation whereas appendix B refers to 'Purge' ventilation. These are different things.

As far as I am aware, mechanical extract ventilation is always required to WCs whether purge ventilation is available or not.

Had another look & I’m still not convinced. The revised regs. do appear ambiguous; general clause 1.5 does state that “extract ventilation is required in each kitchen, bathroom, utility room & bathroom & for sanitary accommodation”. I appreciate they are different ventillation methods but the relative clauses for dwellings are quiet specific;
• Clause 1.8 – select one of the following four ventilation systems

So, if you decide to use system1 – Background ventilations & intermittent extraction rates, refers to table 1.2a. Here there is an opening statement for intermittent extraction which quiet clearly states “intermittent extract rates are given in table 1.1a. For sanitary accommodation only, as an alternative, the purge ventilation provisions (windows) given in Appendix B can be used where security is not an issue”.

As I interpret it, this clearly gives you the opportunity to use purge ventilation (a window) as an alternative to fitting a fan! Or am I still missing something? This statement also appears in all of the other 3 ventilation systems so would apply whichever system is adopted.

Since earlier this year we ask for them in wc/s regardless of window/purge ventilation and only ask for one in utility rooms with a sink , as I said before. This may be interpreted in various ways with regs etc but thats my rule of thumb if you want a completion certificate from me

Are you a BI? Since when does “rule of thumb” or personal interpretation have anything to do with compliance & enforcement of Building Regs ! The BR’s are written & intended as a National Standard (except Scotland) & LABC’s cannot just interpret them as they feel fit. I had assumed if there were any “interpretation issues” then guidance is sought from a central standards authority, is there one? Surely any misinterpretation would be shot down in flames if someone seeks a higher opinion or goes to appeal?

Regarding the utility sink; the Glossary at the back of Section F defines – “Utility Room: a room containing a sink or other feature or equipment which may reasonably be expected to produce water vapour in significant quantities”.

The definition doesn’t state “a sink & other feature or equipment which may reasonably be expected to produce water vapour in significant quantities” it states “a sink or other feature or equipment -----“. If the room has a washing machine &/or tumble drier or anything else in there likely to produce water vapour then, according to the Glossary, it’s still a utility room regardless of weather or not it has a sink! Although you personally or even your specific LABC may only require a fan if the utility room has a sink it’s a misinterpretation as far as I can see, even though it may work in the “punters” favour!

 

[chappers]

Are you a BI? Since when does “rule of thumb” or personal interpretation have anything to do with compliance & enforcement of Building Regs ! The BR’s are written & intended as a National Standard (except Scotland) & LABC’s cannot just interpret them as they feel fit. I had assumed if there were any “interpretation issues” then guidance is sought from a central standards authority, is there one? Surely any misinterpretation would be shot down in flames if someone seeks a higher opinion or goes to appeal?

Bear in mind that the approved documents are not the building regs, they are just an acceptable robust method of complying with the regs and are definitely open to interpretation

 

[Richard C]

Bear in mind that the approved documents are not the building regs, they are just an acceptable robust method of complying with the regs and are definitely open to interpretation

Is that really correct ? If so, that’s a complete revelation to me! So where exactly does one get hold of copies of the definitive "Building Regulations" & what's the point of having "Approved Documents" if they don't reflect the regulations!