FENSA

[crank39]

SALI, you have chose not to listen to a word anybody has said, presumeably because you don't like what you hear and it doesn't fit with your mind set, let me try and make this simple for you to understand.......

You originally had windows fitted, the contract was for windows.

You did not have lintels fitted, the contract was not for lintels.

Lintels are NOT part of the window but part of the structure.

If you had of had lintels fitted within that contract then you would of paid for them.

If you have lintels fitted now then you must PAY for them.

Please say you understand now

 

[vv2806]

SALI, I mentioned your problem to a friend who is an experienced structural engineer. He said you should have proper structural survey about this matter before doing anything else. A window fitter is not qualified to decide whether you need lintels or not, and you are going to take legal actions based on his opinion only. It is not a sensible approach. Please, calm down, do some more research about how your house was built, have a structural engineer to check if there are any problems and then make a decision what to do.

 

[^woody^]

A window fitter is not qualified to decide whether you need lintels or not

Actually they are.

There is an implied duty for the fitter to be competent and conversant with his trade, and it's not beyond his capabilities to be able to assess if, by removing a window, a lintel may be required.

A structural engineer is not going to be much help to the OP, other than being able to state if the brickwork is in distress.

There were no lintels there to start with, so the brickwork is either self supporting, tied to the internal skin (and lintel) or supported off previous frames

Therefore a lintel was not required when constructed.That is an important fact

The real issue is whether a lintel was actually required due to the installers actions, and whether the installer was negligent in not notifying the client that a lintel would be required.

Many older properties have no external lintel, with brickwork supported off frames with supplementary ties to internal skin. When the old windows are removed, the brickwork still stays up, and once the new frame goes in, the brickwork remains in place over the 25 year life of a plastic window.

Now, whilst plastic windows may not be designed to be load bearing, the fact remains that they can be. So installing a plastic frame and not installing a lintel is not automatically an indication of negligence by the installer, and is not an indication that there is a problem with the installation

 

[vv2806]

^woody^, I am not a professional, probably you are right that a window fitter is qualified to establish the need of a lintel, but the chap who said there are no lintels was a sales person and he simply looked at the windows and instantly said that there are no lintels.

It is not clear from the OP's posts how the company that installed the windows confirmed that - did they send somebody to investigate or maybe had some documentation from a survey done when they installed the windows?

Also it is not clear if there is a problem - as you said there are other ways to support the brickwork above the windows. And the plastic windows are often reinforced, so they might be as sufficient as the old timber windows. My point is that the OP should do some more research before dragging anybody to court.

 

[Agile]

As far as my simple mind can see there are three aspects:-

1. The glazing firm should have noted and advised there were no lintels.

2. You may need them fitted.

3. You will have to pay for the lintels to be fitted.

The only question that arises is if YOU or the GLAZING firm should be paying for their windows to be removed and reinstalled !

What does Mr FENSA say about that?

Tony

 

[Mdennis50]

Hi,

New to the fourm so greetings first of all.

Sorry to re-hash an old post, but looking through the net for advice I came upon this topic.

I am having new windows & doors delivered and installed on Thursday this week (13/09/12) and wanted some lintel advice.

The surveyor from the company came over a few weeks ago and said that nothing else was required and that the original quote was fine and no additional costs would be incurred by us. However a week later the company called my wife and said that as we needed to have scaffold and lintels, the cost would increase. My wife took the call and told them to forget about receiving any more money as we had signed the agreeement which was the legally binding doc, coupled with the fact that the surveyor had said no additional elements of the work were required.

Of course, I'm now worried about the lintel situation. My wife cut them off mid-sentence so she cannot recall exactly what they said but if they did say we needed new lintels in all rooms, or just the doors etc, would the onus now be on them to supply and install these? I have no idea whether there is a lintel in place or not. Looking on the external wall above the sliding patio door it looks like bricks and nothing else, but reading your various posts I appreciate it would be tied in so not immediately visible that there is support in place?

I appreciate that they're window fitters and not builders but as they're coming on Thursday I want to know if I can say "well you called us and told us we needed lintels so please install lintels at not cost!" I do think I'm wishful thinking but if they do turn up and they confirm that lintels are required I am open to turning them away and having the work carried out and then rebooking the window installers.

Any help really appreciated.

Regards

 

[Agile]

Try asking neighbours if similar houses.

Tony

 

[dhutch]

Is there was a lintle, although some have concrete or other visable lintals, most are not very visable. Googling 'Catnic' should give you an idea.

My house (Early 1940's council build) doesnt have lintels on the external skin having been origanaly built with strong woodern window frames, and having had UPVC windows fitted be the previous owner without lintels being added, has seen some movement in the bricks above the two main ground floor windows, which has since been repointed and not moved again. Smaller windows currently appear ok, and the first floor windows only have two courses of bricks before the top of the wall. Some of the next door houses which have shot pointing have moved more.
The lintle/window only supports the bricks directly above themselves, the the load of the bricks above speading sideways, and its the inner wall and lintel that supports the floors and roof.
I was quoted around £1500-2000 to do the lintels on the front of mine, but it might be less if the windows are out and your having the lot done. In the mean time im leaving well alone on the assumtion that if starts to move again I can do something but till then I dont need to!

Daniel

Apparently there are no lintels. Some 1920 houses were just built that way and the wooden windows were thought support enough. Now my house is supported by uPVC windows sans lintels and current building regulations seemingly consider this insufficient.

 

[Mdennis50]

Try asking neighbours if similar houses.

Tony

Yes of course. The simpliest advice is often the best. One of my neighbours is having an extension fitted so the perfect opportunity to find out if this style of house does have them above.

The one I am more concerned about is above the sliding patio door. There is two courses of brick above the door, then a timber panel (decorative for the period I think? 1950's ex-council) which goes up to the first floor window sill. So inm effect there is only two courses above the door.

Thanks for the advice, really appreciated.

 

[Harbourwoodwork]

Why are there no pictures posted would this not help?

 

[Mdennis50]

Good point, I'll a couple on in the morning.

 

[speculum]

having been through this painful experience myself although this thread is old i feel its worthwhile for those also exposed to this problem know what they should consider do.

i had 10 windows fitted in a 1930 solid brick semi. became apparent no lintels when frame started to sag.

not all cases are the same but my experience of going to court and winning is this.

firstly it is absolutely the responsibility of the double glazing company to determine whether lintels are or are not present.

if the windows are fitted without lintels the company is responsible for fixing it at their cost.

this all comes under the 1982 sales of goods and services act

in addition under building regs 3 (1) (c) replacement windows are a controlled fitting and even if the previous construction wasnt compliant it must be no worse following the installation of the windows (Regs 3 (2) (b). In essence if the windows being replaced have more structural value than the ones being installed the installation is non complaint. so if your previous windows had no problems but your new ones start to sag or the structure above the widow shows signs of failing then the fitting is non compliant and needs to be rectified by the fitter.

FENSA were as much use as a chocolate tea pot. Their position was this was the person who surveyed my houses before i bought its fault!! They went very quite following my situation being resolved. surprising!! Im more than happy to share the hilarious emails and letters i recieved from them!

i used my home insuarnace provider to help in this and they were excellent via their family legal cover

if anyone finds themselves in this position i strongly advise to speak to building control and be prepared to challenge any suggestion that its your responsibility. these companies need to be held to account and demonstate a level of competance that what they are doing is with the expected level of expertise including knowing they are not harming a building by their actions.

finally dont trust anyone in the field of double glazing. im sorry this may be harse and im sure not everyone is as slippery as a fish but in my expereince this approach prepares you for if things go wrong.

 

[crank39]

Typing from a phone so forgive me for any typos.

No one in this thread is disputing whether lintels should or should not be fitted, I think the original question was that Sali thinks lintels form part of the window and should be included, a fitters argument is that they are part of the surrounding structure - the building and if required will cost extra, if Sali was prepared to pay £100 per window to have lintels fitted retrospectively I'm certain the company would of come back to fit them, my guess is that she(I assume it's a she)wasn't prepared and hence the reason for making the original post

Admittedly fitters and DG companies could do a lot better when advising potential customers about the need for lintels, but the bottom line is that if they are required then it's an extra cost on top of each window and not included, Sali was really struggling with this bit I felt!

 

[Gazman16]

It can be impossible to tell weather or not a window would need lintels until a window has been removed to expose what is there especially if the house is rendered.

At this point the customer should be informed and no further windows removed.

As a one man band window company I have just come across a similar situation myself, In 15 years of fitting windows I had never come across one without an external window before. Luckily I did spot this one before the job was started and I posted here for advice.
See these threads:
//www.diynot.com/forums/windows-doors/possibly-unsuported-soildier-course.386994/
//www.diynot.com/forums/building/possibly-unsuported-soildier-course.386925/

If it hadn't of been for a small gap in the filler between the top of the window and the bricks I wouldn't have known there was no lintel until I had the window out.

It seems in this case most builders and windows fitters who have commented agree that the soldier course is tied to the internal lintel and there should be no need to fit one.

I have talked it over with the customer and he is still a bit worried so I will be getting a structural engineer to come and give his opinion, This will be at the customers expense likewise if it turns out that a lintel is required this will also be an extra bill for them.

 

[crank39]

Exactly right, if lintels are required whether noted before or after a window is taken out is not down to the dg company to pay for, how is their fault your openings need lintels, your openings need lintels then you pay, they are not included, much like internal windowboards aren't, if you want them they're extra

Of course like i've said, the customer relies on the experience and expects sound advice from the dg surveyor because come installation time if the fitters realise that lintels are requiredv then there will be a stand off as the customer will not want to pay more money

IMO this is where dg companies fall down, can't put a figure on it but i guess there are plenty that are out of their depth in all aspects of running a dg business and believe me i have seen some shocking jobs on my travels