Finally.......lintel solution for my windows.....

[dishman]

OK...it has been an ongoing saga......

I made a post a while back about the ongoing trials and tribulations of finding a window company who would install a proper lintel for the external leaf on a property.

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...finally-got-quotes.489592/page-2#post-4017495

There is a timber lintel on the internal leaf, but no lintel on the external leaf.

I went through about 6 double glazing firms. Only one mentioned proper lintels, but they were so unreliable in getting back to me, I got the impression that the job was too much effort for them and there were cheaper and easier jobs to be had. All the others either mentioned re-enforced frames (bullshit) and angle irons.

I also went through about 4 builders, all of whom preferred to install angle irons. Which, from what I have read and from the opinions on here, is not the best solution.

I have finally found a builder, who on the initial telephone consultation said he would install catnic or equivalent without any suggestion from me. When I mentioned angle irons, he felt they were not appropriate, and a bit of a cheat, even though a lot of people used them.

This was good enough for me.

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So, quote coming this week. A few questions though.

1) He did mention that for the lintels required on the second floor, beneath the render, that a concrete lintel would also be equally appropriate.

I am so cautious about the whole thing now I wanted to check with those on here.

As this has been dragging on for far too long, I also asked him if they would install the windows, to which he said yes.

2) So I wanted to check. Should any builder worth their salt have any issue installing upvc windows? Or is it such a specialised thing that I should still get a window company in to install them? Is there anything I have to be aware of with regard to building control if a builder is doing it rather than a fensa approved firm.

3) Should I also ensure a cavity tray and weep vents are installed as part of the installation of the new lintel? The internal timber lintel is staying on the large lounge window due to some ornate coving. Is there any benefit to replacing the timber lintels on the other windows? If the internal lintel stays, I assume a cavity tray should still be retrofitted.

Thank you in advance.

 

[^woody^]

Concrete lintels are OK. Cavity trays and weep holes will be needed

I would have thought that any proper builder should know what to do.

It's a judgement call on the inner lintels. If they are OK, and the builder does not make the situation any worse, then they can stay. They could be inspected when the outer one comes out.

Make sure that any cavity tray is building into a joint on the inner leaf. Not just tacked to the face.

 

[dishman]

Yeh, I don't want to interfere...it's just finding a proper builder has been the hard part.

But, considering he is the first builder to specify the correct thing I am very hopeful, but being cautious I just want to know what to expect from a good job.

In my view, a builder who specifies the best/proper solution for a small job is more likely to do a good job with any job.

It seems for something like this it is a big black hole in terms of getting a decent builder. As I said, nearly all the ones I spoke to seemed more than happy to shove an angle iron in and be done.

I was getting to the point where I was going to give up...and just be content with a less than ideal job.

 

[dishman]

Follow up question.....

I notice that concrete lintels, based on images I can see online, often do not have weep vents. Is this to be expected? Why would you have weep vents for one type and not the other.

He only suggested concrete lintels as an option for the top floor windows behind the render. These will be well protected by the roof overhang if that has any impact. You can see on the images I linked to on the other thread.

 

[^woody^]

Can only see one image of yours in that other thread - a GF window with a crack above.

Concrete don't have weep vents in them, they are put in above them on top of the cavity tray. All lintels require weep vents.

However, if lintels are so close to a soffit which is wide enough to give them shelter then a tray and vents wont strictly be necessary.

 

[dishman]

Ahh, yeh -

View media item 99773View media item 99774

 

[oldbutnotdead]

And re FENSA- as long as you (or your builder) put in a Building Notice then BCO will include checking the windows as part of the deal. As far as I know, all they check is that the glass is the posh A rated stuff- well that's all they checked on my windows, as well as the glass being toughened/laminated where required.
Final one- having experienced both builder and window fitter installing doors and windows I'd go with the builder every time.

 

[dishman]

Cool thanks for the info- Well this guy cancelled today. But, I am willing to give a bit of leeway with all the bad weather. At least he text me well in advance. It seems there are leaks and property damage abound at the moment.

Judging from the pictures, I assume that if a concrete lintel was used, it would be so high in up in the eaves that weep vents would be optional as per @^woody^ .

Annoyingly I can find no examples of concrete lintels with weep vents on google images. It seems that the majority of the time builders do not bother.

 

[dishman]

OK, the builder just visited....He said he would probably install Catnics all round as there is not much brickwork above the top windows, so it could be a squeeze if they used concrete ones up there.

He mentioned something about the fact that the headers have been used at certain points probably exacerbated brickwork drop (or uneven drop) and it not being an even drop in the brickwork. Something to that effect.He explained that headers had been used there to ensure the brickwork lined up later on for the walls construction. I am paraphrasing.

I mentioned cavity trays, and he did say they would normally tack them to the inside leaf when retrofitting. I asked about chasing in and he did agree it could be done but it could cause more mess with the masonry.

He has his own contact for window installation, which I assume is par for the course with builders.

Thoughts?

 

[Ian H]

I'd say your better off with an angle iron.




Only joking. Get it done then start a lintel consultancy

 

[dishman]

I nearly spat out my drink......hahah - LintelsRus

I feel like I could. As a non-builder layman it has really surprised me how many are specifying the incorrect solution.

I have my eye on a house down the road that has just sold, it has the orginal 1930s windows which I am sure will be the first thing to go when they move in. So, I may just pop down there after they move in and give them some forewarning. Should save them a few months of tearing their hair out.

Or maybe not....I guess most people do not bother checking or questioning what is specified....I now truly understand the meaning of ignorance is bliss.....

 

[dishman]

.....Maybe I spoke too soon......looks like another builder where the job is in the dead zone of being too small and awkward to be worth their time and effort when there are bigger, easier and more profitable jobs to be had.

Been a week now, and not a dickie bird......I'm still holding out hope for a quote to come through at some point though....although I do not see the job being that difficult to price up i.e 5 lintels and a scaffold.

Maybe it is because I asked about cavity trays.......me and my asking questions!!!! Maybe it annoyed him when I asked if the cavity tray could be chased into the brickwork rather than tacked on as he suggested.

Well, I found another builder locally who had examples of lintel installation on their website. In fact one example was a stone lintel, showing a cavity tray and weep vents!

After a call, he specified a catnic or equivalent, and suggested a cavity tray and weep vents ,without me asking. When I mentioned what the upvc companies had specified, he warned me against "angle irons" etc. So, there is hope yet.....

Fingers crossed.....

 

[Bullet-Proof_Biscuit]

To clarify these 'angle irons' which are suggested by upvc window 'fitters' are in fact I-section rolled steels?

I raise the point of upvc window fitters as being 'fitters' as to describe them thusly might insinuate they know what they are doing

 

[dishman]

To clarify these 'angle irons' which are suggested by upvc window 'fitters' are in fact I-section rolled steels?

I raise the point of upvc window fitters as being 'fitters' as to describe them thusly might insinuate they know what they are doing

Yes, this was an early point of clarification if that is what you mean. They meant an L shape piece of steel. Some mentioned it being galvanised, some did not. But they meant a basic L shaped section of thick (8mm?) steel. They were not using the term angle iron as a short hand for a proper lintel (Catnic or otherwise).

I assume you are further re-iterating that "angle irons" are not suitable? And that window fitters are just fitters and not builders?

If so, worry not, as you may discover, my endeavour to find a decent "installer", or even builder as been a story worthy of bible verse. My posts on this subject have been going on for some time.

I have gone through 6 window companies. Some of which specified no lintels were required (re-enforced frames) which I know is bull****. Some specified angle irons, but only to certain openings. One specified their own bespoke "non-lintel" lintel, a 2mm thick angle iron that had ears and bolted to brickwork around the frame (so it could be slotted in, fensa approved apparently). One firm, to their credit specified a proper Catnic, but they pretty much went dark on me, so I took that as an indication they did not want the work (probably easier jobs elsewhere).

I have had quotes from 5 builders, all but 1 specified angle irons. The last firm that visited said all the right things, but, as per my previous post, a week has passed and no quote is forthcoming. So I can only assume there is easier work elsewhere.

Until the firm I called a few days ago, none had mentioned cavity trays or weep vents. They are due to visit this weekend. So, I have have my hopes raised once again.

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As I have said in previous posts, it has all been very frustrating and annoying. I have even questioned whether I should just accept a substandard job as I assume many other people do (mainly because they do not ask!). It would probably be cheaper too.

The most annoying aspect are the firms that just go quiet and do not return a quote. It makes me feel like it is something I have said or that I maybe asked too many questions and annoyed them. But, when reflecting on it, I did not ask anything other than; What type of lintel do you use? And. Is a cavity tray required? I always asked the questions as if I am ignorant of the best solution, to see what a builder specifies. I have never challenged them on their choice. I have been, in my view, very polite and amenable.

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On the plus side, I am planning a large extension in the near future. So finding a firm that specifies a proper solution for such a small job should, in my mind, be a good indication that they do a proper job on a larger and more complex job. If corners are cut on a small job, can only imagine what is cut on a larger one.

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P.S Big thanks to all those who have put up with my multiple posts about this ongoing dilemma. I would have not had the knowledge to ensure a proper job was being done if it was not for your experience and information

 

[^woody^]

Over the years I've come across many plastic window fitters. In my mind there should be no difference between a person who fits timber windows and one who fits plastic windows, but plastic window fitters always seem to be just skilled in the narrow task of fitting plastic windows, whereas timber window fitters are actually carpenters who do other carpentry work too and know more about building construction as they have typically been apprenticed or worked on other jobs with other trades.

I also think that plastic window fitters come and go, and a lot of casual workers are employed to cut out old frames and then "just fit" the new frames with a few screws and a bead of silicone.

There is no apprenticeship, and training can be a few days. Yes there are good plastic fitters, who do a great job, but what I'm saying is that its a very easy thing for unskilled and inexperienced people to get into, and these have very little knowledge of building construction generally.

So you either get plastic fitters who only can (or want to) fit plastic windows, and others who will have a go at fitting lintels or widening openings. But they don't really know what they should be doing - what lintels to use, what DPC to install and where to install it.

At the other end of the scale, you can get bricklayers who know about lintels and DPC's but are not keen to or able to fit frames.

That don't help you, but that's what I see.

In my view, any plastic window firm should know about lintels and DPCs. And about regulations and standards relating to the fitting of windows. They may not have skilled people to do this work, but then that's where sub-contractors come in. If they are a large firm then trained directly employed trades or a sub-contract team should be available.

The bloke doing the initial survey should be noting all this and then it's all organised for the fitting day. It's not difficult.

It will be frustrating going through the phone book, but if a firm turns up to quote and they say that they will check and where necessary fit a proprietary galvanised steel lintel (Catnic, IG, Keystone) and then if they say they will check for and where necessary install a cavity tray, and if they say the will check for and ensure that vertical DPC's are in place then you know that they know what a proper job is, and may even carry one out.

But if they say that they don't need to "fit that" or "do this" and give you ten reasons whey they don't need to do something, and you don't need to worry, then you do need to worry because they either don't know or don't care. They fail the interview, and it's easy to see.

If it make you feel better, I come across the exact same thing regularly.