I take it that if you are powering the external sounder via the Elmdene, that you are not driving the sounder triggers from the panel outputs. If you are, then you need to ensure that any open-collector output pull-ups are disconnected at the panel. It would be okay if the sounder triggers / tamper Etc are driven by the RIOs when they are using the same supply. You didn't show the sounder in your diagram.
Galaxy Dimension zones High Resistante
- Thread starter Sor
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It´s taking some time, higher resistances don't occur everyday and not always in the same zones. It looks like a random thing. This post it's just to keep an update.
And yes, I didn't show everything in my diagram. The external sounder was driven by the disconnected RIO's outputs, but the tamper loop was in the panel. Everything is disconnected now, except one RIO and one keypad (Panel -> RIO -> Keypad). I'll report the results in a few days.
Thanks.
And yes, I didn't show everything in my diagram. The external sounder was driven by the disconnected RIO's outputs, but the tamper loop was in the panel. Everything is disconnected now, except one RIO and one keypad (Panel -> RIO -> Keypad). I'll report the results in a few days.
Thanks.
Unfortunately, the problem persists.
The system is now Galaxy Dimension 96 Panel Line 2 -> RIO 2-> Keypad.
Would it be usefull to connect the external RIO to Line 1 instead and see what happens?
Other conclusions/observations I took (don't know if correct and if it helps):
First 8 onboard zones detectors (RIO 0) seem to have less (meaning not as high and not so frequently high) problems. But I only have 2 DT (both outdoor) in those 8 zones and they are from different brands than the rest of all the detectors I have.
The other zones of RIO 0 are zones with no Relays, this is door contacts, Panic Buttons, and those never had high resistances, as far as I have noticed. They always had a Min to Max resistance in the order of 990-1030 Ohm, just like all the spare zones with 1k resistors (included in the 16 onboard and the 16 offboard of the 2 external RIOs), and this fluctuation seems to be normal:
I closed two zones (one in the onboard RIO 1 and the other in the offboard RIO 2) with 1k resistors inside two DT detectors and, for the next 14 days, they had resistances between 984-1026 Ohm, similar to those of spare zones with 1k resistors. I tend to conclude that the high resistances issue is only present in detectors with relays -> DT and fire detectors. But I have 4 different brands of DT detectors and 2 brands of fire detectors. It seems unlikely they all have the same issues. Not to forget I also had a fault with the sounders tamper loop connected to the panel.
Could you advise on the next step?
The system is now Galaxy Dimension 96 Panel Line 2 -> RIO 2-> Keypad.
Would it be usefull to connect the external RIO to Line 1 instead and see what happens?
Other conclusions/observations I took (don't know if correct and if it helps):
First 8 onboard zones detectors (RIO 0) seem to have less (meaning not as high and not so frequently high) problems. But I only have 2 DT (both outdoor) in those 8 zones and they are from different brands than the rest of all the detectors I have.
The other zones of RIO 0 are zones with no Relays, this is door contacts, Panic Buttons, and those never had high resistances, as far as I have noticed. They always had a Min to Max resistance in the order of 990-1030 Ohm, just like all the spare zones with 1k resistors (included in the 16 onboard and the 16 offboard of the 2 external RIOs), and this fluctuation seems to be normal:
I closed two zones (one in the onboard RIO 1 and the other in the offboard RIO 2) with 1k resistors inside two DT detectors and, for the next 14 days, they had resistances between 984-1026 Ohm, similar to those of spare zones with 1k resistors. I tend to conclude that the high resistances issue is only present in detectors with relays -> DT and fire detectors. But I have 4 different brands of DT detectors and 2 brands of fire detectors. It seems unlikely they all have the same issues. Not to forget I also had a fault with the sounders tamper loop connected to the panel.
Could you advise on the next step?
#GalaxyGuy Can you please help here?
Already removed everything from the panel, leaving just 1 keypad in Line 1, closing all zones with 1K resistors. In the following 20 days, resistances changed between minimums of 984 and maximums of 1020 Ohm in all 14 zones.
CONCLUSION: if this minimum to maximum range of resistances is acceptable, then the problem is not from the panel. But then again, DT detectors and smoke detectors wired to the panel sometimes have high resistances, though rarely.
As I wrote in Post #18, high resistances only happen in detectors with relays (DT detectors and smoke detectors, even though a smoke detector relay isn't normally opening and closing). Door Contacts and Panic Buttons never had high resistances, either wired to onboard zones (RIO0 or RIO1) or to external RIOs.
A DT detector (with relay) wired to an external RIOs can (*) have high resistances frequently. But, the same detector wired to an onboard zone (RIO1) never had a high resistance in 23 consecutive days.
(*) Because it can happen to reach high resistances for a period of time and then that doesn't happen in another sometimes long period of time.
DT detectors (with relays) wired to onboard zones (RIO0 and RIO1) rarely have high resistances. But if wired to an external RIO they often have high resistances.
A DT detector wired to an external RIO, often having high resistances (it reached more than1200 Ohm in the 5 days before I did this experiment), covered with a paper, stopped having high resistances for 14 consecutive days. The day I uncovered it, it reached 1297 Ohm. The same the day after.
New DT detectors (never used) have the same problem if wired to external RIOs, but not if wired to onboard RIOs, so it's not a problem of old detectors.
WHAT CONCLUSION CAN WE DRAW FROM THIS MESS?
Problem seems to be with detectors with relays, especially if wired to external RIOs.
But the problem isn't only with external RIOs (one worked just fine for 20 years with an old Galaxy 16+), also happens with onboard detectors, though not often.
Other Experiences I did and Conclusions (hopefully right)
- Backup batteries were OK, but replaced them with new ones anyway.
- Also tried without backup batteries, in case battery charging would be loading the panel down, problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the battery charging
- Disconnected the zone wires inside a problematic DT detector and closed the zone there with1K resistor. Problem solved, the next 14 days, no high resistances.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the wires or from the connections. Seems to be from the detectors, mainly if on external RIOs.
- Powering the external RIO directly from the panel Line 1 or Line 2 instead of external PSU. Problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the external PSU; problem is not from Line 2, also happens if RIO wired to Line 1 (external RIO usually wired to Line 2)
- Wiring the external RIO to the panel with a new cable in a different path didn't solve the problem.
CONCLUSION: the problem is not from the cable or its route between the external RIO and the panel.
- Removing keypads from the external RIOs, leaving just one keypad wired to panel Line 1 and one RIO to panel Line 2 (usually, I have 2 external RIOs, each with 1keypad). Problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the keypads.
Already removed everything from the panel, leaving just 1 keypad in Line 1, closing all zones with 1K resistors. In the following 20 days, resistances changed between minimums of 984 and maximums of 1020 Ohm in all 14 zones.
CONCLUSION: if this minimum to maximum range of resistances is acceptable, then the problem is not from the panel. But then again, DT detectors and smoke detectors wired to the panel sometimes have high resistances, though rarely.
As I wrote in Post #18, high resistances only happen in detectors with relays (DT detectors and smoke detectors, even though a smoke detector relay isn't normally opening and closing). Door Contacts and Panic Buttons never had high resistances, either wired to onboard zones (RIO0 or RIO1) or to external RIOs.
A DT detector (with relay) wired to an external RIOs can (*) have high resistances frequently. But, the same detector wired to an onboard zone (RIO1) never had a high resistance in 23 consecutive days.
(*) Because it can happen to reach high resistances for a period of time and then that doesn't happen in another sometimes long period of time.
DT detectors (with relays) wired to onboard zones (RIO0 and RIO1) rarely have high resistances. But if wired to an external RIO they often have high resistances.
A DT detector wired to an external RIO, often having high resistances (it reached more than1200 Ohm in the 5 days before I did this experiment), covered with a paper, stopped having high resistances for 14 consecutive days. The day I uncovered it, it reached 1297 Ohm. The same the day after.
New DT detectors (never used) have the same problem if wired to external RIOs, but not if wired to onboard RIOs, so it's not a problem of old detectors.
WHAT CONCLUSION CAN WE DRAW FROM THIS MESS?
Problem seems to be with detectors with relays, especially if wired to external RIOs.
But the problem isn't only with external RIOs (one worked just fine for 20 years with an old Galaxy 16+), also happens with onboard detectors, though not often.
Other Experiences I did and Conclusions (hopefully right)
- Backup batteries were OK, but replaced them with new ones anyway.
- Also tried without backup batteries, in case battery charging would be loading the panel down, problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the battery charging
- Disconnected the zone wires inside a problematic DT detector and closed the zone there with1K resistor. Problem solved, the next 14 days, no high resistances.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the wires or from the connections. Seems to be from the detectors, mainly if on external RIOs.
- Powering the external RIO directly from the panel Line 1 or Line 2 instead of external PSU. Problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the external PSU; problem is not from Line 2, also happens if RIO wired to Line 1 (external RIO usually wired to Line 2)
- Wiring the external RIO to the panel with a new cable in a different path didn't solve the problem.
CONCLUSION: the problem is not from the cable or its route between the external RIO and the panel.
- Removing keypads from the external RIOs, leaving just one keypad wired to panel Line 1 and one RIO to panel Line 2 (usually, I have 2 external RIOs, each with 1keypad). Problem persists.
CONCLUSION: problem is not from the keypads.
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You seem to have gone to lots of effort, but haven't updated the firmware to the latest. I'm not sure which version you are using, but it's worth ensuring you are at the latest just to rule out any issues that have been fixed in firmware. It's also worth noting that different RIO firmware versions have different capabilities regarding zone resistance, so the panel may behave differently when adding an old firmware version peripheral.
From what you say, you've narrowed down to the sensors by placing a 1k resistor across the zone to 0v in the sensor head. If that's the case, then check that the detectors themselves are a dead short across the NC to 0V and fully open circuit when triggered. Some sensors have additional resistance in the relay circuit (not including any built-in EOL) and you don't want that. The sensor is a basic switch, so should be a dead short and fully open when triggered. When you replaced a sensor, did you select a different type ?
From what you say, you've narrowed down to the sensors by placing a 1k resistor across the zone to 0v in the sensor head. If that's the case, then check that the detectors themselves are a dead short across the NC to 0V and fully open circuit when triggered. Some sensors have additional resistance in the relay circuit (not including any built-in EOL) and you don't want that. The sensor is a basic switch, so should be a dead short and fully open when triggered. When you replaced a sensor, did you select a different type ?
First of all, thanks for your reply.
Galaxy Dimension 96 FW version 6.94
2 external RIOs both with version v1.00
Can a RIO fw be updated?
They don't seem to have a port, but maybe via the panel SPI Program Header?
By the way, I forgot in my previous post, the external RIOs blinking led rate is
Does it seem OK?
It comes now to my mind, as for the panel fw update, from the beginning I sometimes get a fault message (Low Volts RIO100), when I have a power failure.
I don´t know if it is related, but onboard detectors that had high resistances issues were wired to RIO1.
One of the experiments I did was, after disconecting everyting, I tested DT detectors (with relays) wired to RIO0 and RIO1. During the test period (23 days), I had no high resistances issues. The only problem is that onboard detectors rarely have this issue, which are very frequent with detectors wired to external RIOs, so any conclusion might not be valid, except if I test it for several months.
You've once told me this was a fw issue. Has this been addressed yet in recent firmwares?
Sorry, not sure I understand what you mean.
I opened a sensor, disconnected the zone wires from the sensor and closed the zone with a 1K resistor between those 2 wires, inside the sensor, as is the sensor wasn't there.
When I replaced a sensor I used a new identical one in case the sensor might be faulty, but then again, I would have more than 10 faulty sensors.
Galaxy Dimension 96 FW version 6.94
2 external RIOs both with version v1.00
Since most high resistance issues are with detectors wired to the external RIOs, it seems to me this might be the problem.
Can a RIO fw be updated?
They don't seem to have a port, but maybe via the panel SPI Program Header?
By the way, I forgot in my previous post, the external RIOs blinking led rate is
Does it seem OK?
It comes now to my mind, as for the panel fw update, from the beginning I sometimes get a fault message (Low Volts RIO100), when I have a power failure.
I don´t know if it is related, but onboard detectors that had high resistances issues were wired to RIO1.
One of the experiments I did was, after disconecting everyting, I tested DT detectors (with relays) wired to RIO0 and RIO1. During the test period (23 days), I had no high resistances issues. The only problem is that onboard detectors rarely have this issue, which are very frequent with detectors wired to external RIOs, so any conclusion might not be valid, except if I test it for several months.
You've once told me this was a fw issue. Has this been addressed yet in recent firmwares?
Sorry, not sure I understand what you mean.
I opened a sensor, disconnected the zone wires from the sensor and closed the zone with a 1K resistor between those 2 wires, inside the sensor, as is the sensor wasn't there.
When I replaced a sensor I used a new identical one in case the sensor might be faulty, but then again, I would have more than 10 faulty sensors.
I forgot.
I don´t understand what you mean. I tested several zones (sensors) that have the issue, and the zone resistance I read in the keypad display is around 1000Ω with the zone closed and around 2000Ω with the zone opened.
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