Help needed badly

[vectraguy]

you connected your pump between the cylinder and vent
not a spur off the horizontal pipe from the cylinder.

Hello seco services thanks for your reply, and I'm trying to visualise a spur which in electrical work means breaking into an existing circuit to tap off energy.

If that's the case should I remake the the direct pipe connection between cylinder output and the hot water feed/vent T piece, and the make a T to the pump output.

As I'm writing it doesn't sound right, so I've probably got your meaning wrong.

Please let me know as I've spent a lot of money and time on this project and would love to finish the job, and when you are nearly 76 and on a limited pension it's not always easy to afford having it done for you.

Regards vectraguy.

 

[Agile]

At nearly 76, I would be avoiding the stress of dealing with problems like this and put up with the poor performanance.

You need to ensure the vent pipe comes immediately after the cylinder.

The pump needs to be in the pipe below the vent connection, usually one going downwards.

Even when you have done that there is a potential problem that the pump might suck air down the vent but that depends on the pipework layout and you will have to see what happens.

Tony

 

[vectraguy]

Hi Tony thanks for your patience with me, and from your last post I have now a good idea of what is required,firstly I need to rejoin the two ends of the horizontal feed pipe to the up and down T piece which will re establish the immediate relationship to the vent pipe as it's always previously been.

Then break into the down hot water feed pipe and insert the pump input and output, and as you say because the input is still sucking it may draw in air, but I hope that is not as bad as it was with the pump forcing water up the vent tube.

Please confirm I have it right in my assumption.

Regards vectraguy.

 

[Goldberg]

Hi vectraguy

You've now understood what people have said you should be doing, but if you do that it's still a compromise, and as Agile has pointed out the pump might still draw air down the vent.

For this reason a much better solution exists, which is to change the top cylinder connection for a Surrey flange. This fitting has a dip tube that takes water from below the level of the top of the cylinder, and so is VERY unlikely to draw air from anywhere.

The outlet from this dip tube is what you connect to the pump inlet. Also, there is a second outlet from the Surrey flange that you can use for a non-pumped hot supply, if you want to - if you don't, then you simply connect that second outlet to the vent.

 

[vectraguy]

Hi vectraguy

You've now understood what people have said you should be doing, but if you do that it's still a compromise, and as Agile has pointed out the pump might still draw air down the vent.

For this reason a much better solution exists, which is to change the top cylinder connection for a Surrey flange. This fitting has a dip tube that takes water from below the level of the top of the cylinder, and so is VERY unlikely to draw air from anywhere.

The outlet from this dip tube is what you connect to the pump inlet. Also, there is a second outlet from the Surrey flange that you can use for a non-pumped hot supply, if you want to - if you don't, then you simply connect that second outlet to the vent.

Hello Goldberg, thanks for your interesting suggestion which appeals to me, and the access to the cylinder top flange is very easy, and from my recent work on providing an incorrect feed to the pump there is no visible water escape when disconnecting the pipe at that location after turning off the header tank feed valve.

I've now had a look at the existing flange, and wonder if the thread is fixed to the cylinder, and it's just a case of unscrewing the 22mm compression joint securing the HW output pipe, and then remove the flange to replace it with the Surrey flange which from your info sounds fairly easy, but I've said that before


Regards vectraguy

 

[Goldberg]

Hi vectraguy

Yes you've understood what's needed, and the importance of being able to shut off the cold feed to the cylinder

Most cylinders have a 1" BSP female threaded boss, but that doesn't mean that yours does. There's a female threaded ("York") flange that suits those cylinders that have a male spigot - see the Watermill web site for information.

 

[vectraguy]

Hi vectraguy

Yes you've understood what's needed, and the importance of being able to shut off the cold feed to the cylinder

Most cylinders have a 1" BSP female threaded boss, but that doesn't mean that yours does. There's a female threaded ("York") flange that suits those cylinders that have a male spigot - see the Watermill web site for information.

I think I will remove the existing flange and take it with me to the plumbers merchant, and let them choose which is the right one for the Surrey flange before I buy it.

I can now see the logic of having a seperate feed for hot water, and venting, must admit I thought it was the hot water pipeing that needed venting, but now I realise (Hope I'm right) it's the cylinder.

Regards vectraguy.

 

[kevplumb]

- see the Watermill web site for information.

wondered where you where getting correct info

 

[vectraguy]

Hi vectraguy

Yes you've understood what's needed, and the importance of being able to shut off the cold feed to the cylinder

Most cylinders have a 1" BSP female threaded boss, but that doesn't mean that yours does. There's a female threaded ("York") flange that suits those cylinders that have a male spigot - see the Watermill web site for information.

Hello again Goldberg, I went into Wickes today and saw a Surrey flange for £3.95 which I found surprisingly cheap, so couldn't resist and bought it.

At home I peeled away the insulation jacket around the flange, and you've guessed, I found a male spigot, so I need a York which Wickes havn't got, but looking at the pictures on the net the York just looks like a Surrey with a female to female adaptor, and if that's the case can such an adaptor be bought on it's own, assuming of course they are the same threads.

Regards vectraguy.

 

[kevplumb]

3/4"" or !"" bsp socket

 

[vectraguy]

3/4"" or !"" bsp socket

Hi m8 sorry for delay replying, had to take the wife out

it's 1" BSP

vectraguy.

 

[Goldberg]

Hello again Goldberg, I went into Wickes today and saw a Surrey flange for £3.95 which I found surprisingly cheap, so couldn't resist and bought it.

Hi vectraguy - I suspect I would have been tempted by the apparent bargain too.

I found a male spigot, so I need a York which Wickes havn't got, but looking at the pictures on the net the York just looks like a Surrey with a female to female adaptor, and if that's the case can such an adaptor be bought on it's own, assuming of course they are the same threads.

It's pretty much inconceivable that the thread isn't BSP, and it's very likely to be 1", so you just need a 1" BSP socket to connect the male SF to the cylinder.

However, be prepared for the dip tube not to work entirely as designed, because it will be at least 1" higher in the water than intended.

If you're feeling adventurous then an Essex flange is another alternative. This is actually my favourite on an old cylinder because it doesn't present any risk to the potentially thin copper walls of the cylinder dome.

However, the extra work is that you need to drain the cylinder down to just below the seam of the dome. If you have difficulty opening the drain off cock then you might need a third hand to position a drip tray and a wet vac while poking out the DOC washer.

The only special tool you need for an Essex flange is the correct size of hole saw, and the only special skill is the patience to not rush the job, which could result in dropping the flange inside the cylinder and having to buy another one. If you take your time then they've very easy to fit, and they seal very well. Just don't cut yourself on the sharp edge of the hole.

 

[kevindgas]

where the pipe comes out of the top of your cylinder this is hot water outlet

follow this pipe it usually goes up a bit then sideways towards a wall, the pipe should tee with the vent going up and the hot water to the taps going down

so long as you fit your pump after the tee, in the pipe going down (to hot water outlets) then it will work so long as you fit it the right way round!!

there is no need to fit an essex or surrey flange to the cylinder as previously suggested ( it is not compulsory )

the lower down the pipe the pump can be fitted the better we usually put them on the floor in front or beside the cylinder.

 

[Goldberg]

so long as you fit your pump after the tee, in the pipe going down (to hot water outlets) then it will work so long as you fit it the right way round!

He already knows all of that, and he knows that there's no guarantee of the pump not drawing air down the vent.

there is no need to fit an essex or surrey flange to the cylinder as previously suggested ( it is not compulsory )

Whilst it isn't compulsory, it's both needed and recommended.

Or are you advocating that he ignore the pump manufacturer's guidance?

 

[kevplumb]

Or are you advocating that he ignore the pump manufacturer's guidance?

what you mean like you do the building regs when it suits your argument