read it all,im talking bout guy on here whos full of more knowlage than anyone else,not the installers.while we are on bout installers who are hetas,they are self regulated so???????????????
HETAS Engineers a bunch of lying so and so's....
- Thread starter mbga9pgf
- Start date
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Good outcome on the MSe website, shame HETAS demonstrated they were as much use as t@ts on a fish.
C
calorific
Take my hat off to you op. You've kept this thread going for nearly a year now with the same relentless message.
Out of interest, without ploughing though it all, what would have prevented you from opening this thread of woe in the first place? If they's charged you £20 would you be here now?
Out of interest, without ploughing though it all, what would have prevented you from opening this thread of woe in the first place? If they's charged you £20 would you be here now?
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Wow, this has just taken me the best part of two hours to read!!!
A few observations if I may. The OP has one point that seems fair, which is, specialist trades like gas fitters, plumbers, sparkies and heating engineers are highly qualified trades, many of whom are self employed and or run businesses and yet the going rate for a days wage for one person is around £200. HETAS engineers have been quoting me around £400 per person for a days wage and I must put this down to supply & demand!
I run my own property lettings business with all the things mentioned like cars, staff, fuel, an office, indemnity insurance and so on and we make a decent living on very much less, as do the other building trades already mentioned.
In defence of the HETAS guys, they do have an important job to get right. If they make a mistake, people can die, so respect to them for doing this work correctly, but if prices were more in line with other building trades, less people would consider the DIY route and less lives would be put at risk as a result perhaps.
The OP'er should also be aware (I think he is) that if he tries to sell his property, the surveyor will inform the buyer and lender that there is a solid fuel fire and that the relevant certification should be checked by the solicitors. Essentially every buyer will need to verify this information so he hasn't got any choice but to remove the fire or not sell. It is not possible to take out indemnity insurance against a solid fuel fire. It will need retrospective sign off or no lender will touch the property and few buyers will be advised to purchase it by their solicitors.
Okay, why have I read the whole thread with interest. In a previous life, I worked for Sheppards Construction before joining the RAF as an aircraft engineer, so I know my way around a tool kit and following some quotes this week to connect my small (new) Morso stove to my 9" diameter clay lined never used chimney, I have considered doing the job myself. Unlike the OP'er, if I went down this route, I would involve BC before I sealed the job or take photos of every stage. (I would call them first to see how BC wanted to operate)
That said, I am a busy man and would rather hand over the job to a competent HETAS engineer, but I keep getting conflicting information from all similar qualified HETAS engineers (All of which are listed on the HETAS website) and now they are starting to lose some credibility. Some say the chimney doesn't need a liner, some say they won't fit a stove without one, one said he wants to fit an airbrick, another says I won't need one because the stove only kicks out 4.6kw, one says I need a register plate, another says I just need a clay liner adaptor, one says he needs a cherry picker and wants to pressure test the chimney and yet another says they will simply do a smoke test!!! Then the prices again which are high and still vary wildly and as already mentioned, they only use their own parts, yet the parts they use are the same as what I can buy cheaper from the same roofing specialist in town!
My problem is that parts from specflue are parts from specflue. They are freely available to both trade and the public, so why try to ramp up the price. They are providing a service and this service is covered in their labour costs, be it £400 per hour or whatever. It is just that this tactic of inflating the costs of the parts is similar to a person selling a £1 pen on ebay and then asking £10 to send it through the post! Everyone can see through this and it leaves an element of dislike & distrust.
One HETAS engineer gave the same argument today about the cost of his van being something like £3000 a year, but at £1000 a day, he has covered the entire annual cost of his van in the first week. 22 working days a month, his turnover is aproaching £264,000 a year, not bad for two guys and he is complaining about £3000 for his van. Actually, the cost of his van is offset against tax in anycase and he should be paying 40% tax, so saves 40% of his van and the true cost is nearer £1800 a year. If he is limited, the whole cost is offset. I doubt any busy HETAS engineer is earning less that £60k or £70k per year after costs, so I don't feel sorry for HETAS engineers when they complain about the costs of running a business. Welcome to the real world. Many of us run businesses on far less.
Anyway great money if you can get it day in and day out. As a fully qualified aircraft engineer in the RAF (Took 3 full-time years to learn my trade) I was only earning £19k gross per year and yet to strip down completely a Harrier Jump Jet and reassemble it, must be harder than connecting a wood burning stove, I would imagine.
I hope that one day, for the benefit of the general public in these cash strapped times, HETAS engineer prices will fall in line with other domestic engineering trades.
Apologies for the long post, especially after what is already quite a long thread. I just wanted to bring a little balance to the discussion.
A few observations if I may. The OP has one point that seems fair, which is, specialist trades like gas fitters, plumbers, sparkies and heating engineers are highly qualified trades, many of whom are self employed and or run businesses and yet the going rate for a days wage for one person is around £200. HETAS engineers have been quoting me around £400 per person for a days wage and I must put this down to supply & demand!
I run my own property lettings business with all the things mentioned like cars, staff, fuel, an office, indemnity insurance and so on and we make a decent living on very much less, as do the other building trades already mentioned.
In defence of the HETAS guys, they do have an important job to get right. If they make a mistake, people can die, so respect to them for doing this work correctly, but if prices were more in line with other building trades, less people would consider the DIY route and less lives would be put at risk as a result perhaps.
The OP'er should also be aware (I think he is) that if he tries to sell his property, the surveyor will inform the buyer and lender that there is a solid fuel fire and that the relevant certification should be checked by the solicitors. Essentially every buyer will need to verify this information so he hasn't got any choice but to remove the fire or not sell. It is not possible to take out indemnity insurance against a solid fuel fire. It will need retrospective sign off or no lender will touch the property and few buyers will be advised to purchase it by their solicitors.
Okay, why have I read the whole thread with interest. In a previous life, I worked for Sheppards Construction before joining the RAF as an aircraft engineer, so I know my way around a tool kit and following some quotes this week to connect my small (new) Morso stove to my 9" diameter clay lined never used chimney, I have considered doing the job myself. Unlike the OP'er, if I went down this route, I would involve BC before I sealed the job or take photos of every stage. (I would call them first to see how BC wanted to operate)
That said, I am a busy man and would rather hand over the job to a competent HETAS engineer, but I keep getting conflicting information from all similar qualified HETAS engineers (All of which are listed on the HETAS website) and now they are starting to lose some credibility. Some say the chimney doesn't need a liner, some say they won't fit a stove without one, one said he wants to fit an airbrick, another says I won't need one because the stove only kicks out 4.6kw, one says I need a register plate, another says I just need a clay liner adaptor, one says he needs a cherry picker and wants to pressure test the chimney and yet another says they will simply do a smoke test!!! Then the prices again which are high and still vary wildly and as already mentioned, they only use their own parts, yet the parts they use are the same as what I can buy cheaper from the same roofing specialist in town!
My problem is that parts from specflue are parts from specflue. They are freely available to both trade and the public, so why try to ramp up the price. They are providing a service and this service is covered in their labour costs, be it £400 per hour or whatever. It is just that this tactic of inflating the costs of the parts is similar to a person selling a £1 pen on ebay and then asking £10 to send it through the post! Everyone can see through this and it leaves an element of dislike & distrust.
One HETAS engineer gave the same argument today about the cost of his van being something like £3000 a year, but at £1000 a day, he has covered the entire annual cost of his van in the first week. 22 working days a month, his turnover is aproaching £264,000 a year, not bad for two guys and he is complaining about £3000 for his van. Actually, the cost of his van is offset against tax in anycase and he should be paying 40% tax, so saves 40% of his van and the true cost is nearer £1800 a year. If he is limited, the whole cost is offset. I doubt any busy HETAS engineer is earning less that £60k or £70k per year after costs, so I don't feel sorry for HETAS engineers when they complain about the costs of running a business. Welcome to the real world. Many of us run businesses on far less.
Anyway great money if you can get it day in and day out. As a fully qualified aircraft engineer in the RAF (Took 3 full-time years to learn my trade) I was only earning £19k gross per year and yet to strip down completely a Harrier Jump Jet and reassemble it, must be harder than connecting a wood burning stove, I would imagine.
I hope that one day, for the benefit of the general public in these cash strapped times, HETAS engineer prices will fall in line with other domestic engineering trades.
Apologies for the long post, especially after what is already quite a long thread. I just wanted to bring a little balance to the discussion.
Steamerpont sterted his thread quitew well. But then went on th ruin it:
he has covered the entire annual cost of his van in the first week.
So? And where did you get the £1000 a day from?
22 working days a month, his turnover is aproaching £264,000 a year, not bad for two guys
Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. A large turnover does not neccesairily make a good business, so irrelevant (in this context)
and he is complaining about £3000 for his van
He was probabkly not complaining, just pontig out a signifcan overhead
. Actually, the cost of his van is offset against tax in anycase and he should be paying 40% tax, so saves 40% of his van and the true cost is nearer £1800 a year.
if you use that argument, you have to say that profit or wages of £100 is actually only £60
If he is limited, the whole cost is offset.
What do you mean? It is still onky an expense and is 100% deductible, but that doesn't mean you get the 100% back.
I doubt any busy HETAS engineer is earning less that £60k or £70k per year after costs, so I don't feel sorry for HETAS engineers when they complain about the costs of running a business. Welcome to the real world. Many of us run businesses on far less.
If they didn't charge what they do, they wouldn't earn the money! I don't beleive they are looking for sympathy, just pointing out the costs of running abusiness to those moaning about their fees. You asume a greta deal. 22 days a month assume no sickess no training, no meetings, no holidays. 46 working weeks, mon- fri ' equates to 19.19 days a month on average. LESS sickness and training etc. As it happens, I have just had 13 weeks sickness. NO Pay. It gives your savings a kicking.
Anyway great money if you can get it day in and day out. As a fully qualified aircraft engineer in the RAF (Took 3 full-time years to learn my trade) I was only earning £19k gross per year and yet to strip down completely a Harrier Jump Jet and reassemble it, must be harder than connecting a wood burning stove, I would imagine.
HETAS guys are expensive, and maybe they are taking advantage of the current market.But, they (and most self employed) don't get iron clad government pensions. We don't get full pay while ill for 6 months. We don't get to play cricket while getting paid (an RAF reference). Not many SE retire early. Even fewer retire on full pay through ill health. Pactically none retire early on full pension through ill health caused by stress. (And if you think that the SE dont suffer from stress, then you shpuld retire from being mentally ill)
I thought I would add a bit of balance.
Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/trade-...-lying-so-and-sos.298134/page-8#ixzz2Bm7enS2T
he has covered the entire annual cost of his van in the first week.
So? And where did you get the £1000 a day from?
22 working days a month, his turnover is aproaching £264,000 a year, not bad for two guys
Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. A large turnover does not neccesairily make a good business, so irrelevant (in this context)
and he is complaining about £3000 for his van
He was probabkly not complaining, just pontig out a signifcan overhead
. Actually, the cost of his van is offset against tax in anycase and he should be paying 40% tax, so saves 40% of his van and the true cost is nearer £1800 a year.
if you use that argument, you have to say that profit or wages of £100 is actually only £60
If he is limited, the whole cost is offset.
What do you mean? It is still onky an expense and is 100% deductible, but that doesn't mean you get the 100% back.
I doubt any busy HETAS engineer is earning less that £60k or £70k per year after costs, so I don't feel sorry for HETAS engineers when they complain about the costs of running a business. Welcome to the real world. Many of us run businesses on far less.
If they didn't charge what they do, they wouldn't earn the money! I don't beleive they are looking for sympathy, just pointing out the costs of running abusiness to those moaning about their fees. You asume a greta deal. 22 days a month assume no sickess no training, no meetings, no holidays. 46 working weeks, mon- fri ' equates to 19.19 days a month on average. LESS sickness and training etc. As it happens, I have just had 13 weeks sickness. NO Pay. It gives your savings a kicking.
Anyway great money if you can get it day in and day out. As a fully qualified aircraft engineer in the RAF (Took 3 full-time years to learn my trade) I was only earning £19k gross per year and yet to strip down completely a Harrier Jump Jet and reassemble it, must be harder than connecting a wood burning stove, I would imagine.
HETAS guys are expensive, and maybe they are taking advantage of the current market.But, they (and most self employed) don't get iron clad government pensions. We don't get full pay while ill for 6 months. We don't get to play cricket while getting paid (an RAF reference). Not many SE retire early. Even fewer retire on full pay through ill health. Pactically none retire early on full pension through ill health caused by stress. (And if you think that the SE dont suffer from stress, then you shpuld retire from being mentally ill)
I thought I would add a bit of balance.
Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/trade-...-lying-so-and-sos.298134/page-8#ixzz2Bm7enS2T
Nice try FiremanT.
60% profit is still a lot of profit at £400 a day (Double what heating engineers and plumbers charge) and at this rate they can still afford to take half the month off sick and still earn the same as a plumber who works the whole month!!
You forget that I am self employed, run my own business, have large overheads and expenses (Probably more than a HETAS engineer that works from home. Many do), charge a fraction of what a HETAS engineer charges, can't take holidays or sick days, still have to pay into a private pension plan and despite all this, I am still a high rate taxpayer, so please don't tell me the life of a HETAS engineer is all costs, hard work and no fun! The bottom line is that they have no more overheads than a plumber, sparky, heating engineer and the like, and yet they charge double!!
I am not sure how they can justify this.
HETAS engineers on here should not preach to me in the same way they have preached to the OP, because I am an experienced self employed business person, qualified aeronautical engineer and wasn't born yesterday. The simple truth is that HETAS engineers are ripping off the general public because they can!
Don't get me wrong, I would probably do exactly the same if I was in that position, but any HETAS engineer that tries to justify these prices is having a laugh. If they are not earning enough from a £400 a day salary, they need to have a good look at their business model because they are either not busy enough (Because they are basically part time, not very good or on the sick) or they are haemorrhaging money somewhere that needs addressing.
A two man team that can charge £1000 a day (I have had quotes of £550 per person per day - £1100 a day plus parts) for labour are bringing in £132,000 a year EACH, if they only work 5-days a week and don't have holidays or sick days.
Subtract their overheads....... um......... oh yes the van and diesel........ oh yes perhaps some laibility insurance (Around £500 a year) .....um maybe a ladder and some tools (That will last them a few years so setup costs basically)....... a tax accountant (Which is actually a saving because accountants save more money than they cost) ......um what else?
They should also be VAT registered so everything they buy is VAT deductable and tax deductable. Phone calls, diesel, servicing costs, stationary, protective clothing, tools etc. Even that van and the indemnity insurance is tax deductable.
If a HETAS engineer has overheads that are greater than £15,000 a year I would be truly amazed and would say on record that they are probably lying. (Unless they own a large firm and are coving the costs of many engineers and have other staff, but then the turnover would be much, much higher also.)
So that leaves £117,000 gross income before tax!!! What and you're worried about a pension plan!! The man can buy his house, holiday home and nest egg inside 5-years at that rate. What was the average wage in this country again?
Just for the record, a HETAS engineer is popping over to see me on Sunday morning, so I guess they do work every day then!
The bottom line is that they charge double (Or more) than all other building or domestic trades and well done to them. I am just annoyed that I am also about to fund their lavish lifestyle.
Now I am sure the other HETAS guys will be along soon to try to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, try to defend their high fees, oh an call me a tw@t, but the general public that read this post whill know I am right and that's all that matters.
60% profit is still a lot of profit at £400 a day (Double what heating engineers and plumbers charge) and at this rate they can still afford to take half the month off sick and still earn the same as a plumber who works the whole month!!
You forget that I am self employed, run my own business, have large overheads and expenses (Probably more than a HETAS engineer that works from home. Many do), charge a fraction of what a HETAS engineer charges, can't take holidays or sick days, still have to pay into a private pension plan and despite all this, I am still a high rate taxpayer, so please don't tell me the life of a HETAS engineer is all costs, hard work and no fun! The bottom line is that they have no more overheads than a plumber, sparky, heating engineer and the like, and yet they charge double!!
I am not sure how they can justify this.
HETAS engineers on here should not preach to me in the same way they have preached to the OP, because I am an experienced self employed business person, qualified aeronautical engineer and wasn't born yesterday. The simple truth is that HETAS engineers are ripping off the general public because they can!
Don't get me wrong, I would probably do exactly the same if I was in that position, but any HETAS engineer that tries to justify these prices is having a laugh. If they are not earning enough from a £400 a day salary, they need to have a good look at their business model because they are either not busy enough (Because they are basically part time, not very good or on the sick) or they are haemorrhaging money somewhere that needs addressing.
A two man team that can charge £1000 a day (I have had quotes of £550 per person per day - £1100 a day plus parts) for labour are bringing in £132,000 a year EACH, if they only work 5-days a week and don't have holidays or sick days.
Subtract their overheads....... um......... oh yes the van and diesel........ oh yes perhaps some laibility insurance (Around £500 a year) .....um maybe a ladder and some tools (That will last them a few years so setup costs basically)....... a tax accountant (Which is actually a saving because accountants save more money than they cost) ......um what else?
They should also be VAT registered so everything they buy is VAT deductable and tax deductable. Phone calls, diesel, servicing costs, stationary, protective clothing, tools etc. Even that van and the indemnity insurance is tax deductable.
If a HETAS engineer has overheads that are greater than £15,000 a year I would be truly amazed and would say on record that they are probably lying. (Unless they own a large firm and are coving the costs of many engineers and have other staff, but then the turnover would be much, much higher also.)
So that leaves £117,000 gross income before tax!!! What and you're worried about a pension plan!! The man can buy his house, holiday home and nest egg inside 5-years at that rate. What was the average wage in this country again?
Just for the record, a HETAS engineer is popping over to see me on Sunday morning, so I guess they do work every day then!
The bottom line is that they charge double (Or more) than all other building or domestic trades and well done to them. I am just annoyed that I am also about to fund their lavish lifestyle.
Now I am sure the other HETAS guys will be along soon to try to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, try to defend their high fees, oh an call me a tw@t, but the general public that read this post whill know I am right and that's all that matters.
Steamerpoint";p="2569871 said:Nice try FiremanT.
! The bottom line is that they have no more overheads than a plumber, sparky, heating engineer and the like, and yet they charge double!!
I am not sure how they can justify this.
If a HETAS engineer has overheads that are greater than £15,000 a year I would be truly amazed and would say on record that they are probably lying. (Unless they own a large firm and are coving the costs of many engineers and have other staff, but then the turnover would be much, much higher also.)
Just for the record, a HETAS engineer is popping over to see me on Sunday morning, so I guess they do work every day then!
The bottom line is that they charge double (Or more) than all other building or domestic trades and well done to them. I am just annoyed that I am also about to fund their lavish lifestyle.
quote] You just gotta love them
Thanks Nige F.
I used to think Audi & BMW dealers used to charge a lot for the time they spend working on cars, but this is nothing compared to HETAS engineers and they have expensive workshops and garages to fund, plus lots of staff.
I think we should promote the earning potential of HETAS engineers, so that more people learn the trade and then eventually the supply of HETAS engineers will better balance the demand. Which incidently might actually start reducing when log prices go through the roof after Ash trees are no longer available!! More people will stick with their expensive gas boilers than switch to dirty stoves and expensive wood.
Grab the cash while you can fellas!
I used to think Audi & BMW dealers used to charge a lot for the time they spend working on cars, but this is nothing compared to HETAS engineers and they have expensive workshops and garages to fund, plus lots of staff.
I think we should promote the earning potential of HETAS engineers, so that more people learn the trade and then eventually the supply of HETAS engineers will better balance the demand. Which incidently might actually start reducing when log prices go through the roof after Ash trees are no longer available!! More people will stick with their expensive gas boilers than switch to dirty stoves and expensive wood.
Grab the cash while you can fellas!
G
Goldspoon
It's all about supply and demand (that's me stating the obvious but some people just rant without thinking why). In any free market these two factors dictate financial renumeration and it is the system in which we operate (capitalism). I suppose the question to ask is "is the supply (of stove fitters) growing to meet demand as logically it should and thus keeping prices competitive?". If the answer is, as I believe it may be, "yes but slowly" then why slowly?
I propose that fitting stoves, although not rocket science or jet maintenance, is not quite as easy as some like to suggest and hence there is not the required peeps moving in (as an aside it did seem to be the case that fitters swamped the PV solar industry as soon as the demand hit).
Stove fitting involves the fitter having a variety of attributes and many a potential candidate (not all) may baulk at this. Examples:
Building work: excavation of builder's openings/fitting of lintels/dealing with dangerous lintels/rendering/plastering/making good/knowing what to use and when due to heat affecting materials/fitting chimney pots/breaking through walls to feed stuck chimney liners around difficult corners etc. Dealing with "too small" builder's openings and structural issues.
Working at height: fitting liners not for the faint hearted in many cases.
Hetas training is all classroom based and will not make up for on the job training (e.g. apprenticeship). There is a surprising amount to learn and digest. I would however suggest that this is the easiest part of the road to becoming a stove fitter.
Tiling and laying of slate/granite etc.: (hearths).
Plumbing: During excavations there will often be a back boiler to deal with (sometimes live, sometimes not but one has to know ones plumbing).
The ideal candidates for Hetas training are people with the above range of skills. Ninety percent of a typical stove install (create opening and hearth and line chimney) is building work. A reasonably experienced builder would likely make a good stove fitter.
Some might suggest that "different trades can be brought in". In my experience customers do not warm to this idea.
"Ripping people off"? Customer and tradesman agree a price before work starts, both stating that they are happy to proceed. There is only one Tom Cruise in the world so he charges a fortune for an hour of work... is he ripping people off?
Regarding Steamerpoint's own stove fitting questions:
Stoves below 5kw do not need an air vent unless the property is new build.
If a liner is not being used a full smoke pressure test MUST take place. Two people are required - one warms the chimney (blowtorch), lights a smoke pellet and seals up the fireplace. The second is by the pot and bags the pot when he sees smoke. the smoke s now sealed in the flue and is left inside for five minutes whilst the property is checked for smoke escape.
There are various ways to connect black vitreous flue pipe to a pot liner and it is permissible.
A "register plate" is metal and used to seal a chimney when there is no liner (e.g. a brick or stone might fall down the chimney and hit the plate and make a hole where the smoke can escape - so it must be strong). A "closure plate" can be another type of non-combustible material (e.g. fibreboard) and is used to seal the chimney when there IS a liner (e.g. fit a stainless liner and the chimney sealing plate is called a closure plate and not a register plate). In the case of connecting the black pipe directly into the pot liner then one might argue there is a grey area here?? I believe one can use a closure plate in this situation as the flue is a sealed system. If in doubt one would fit a metal plate.
I propose that fitting stoves, although not rocket science or jet maintenance, is not quite as easy as some like to suggest and hence there is not the required peeps moving in (as an aside it did seem to be the case that fitters swamped the PV solar industry as soon as the demand hit).
Stove fitting involves the fitter having a variety of attributes and many a potential candidate (not all) may baulk at this. Examples:
Building work: excavation of builder's openings/fitting of lintels/dealing with dangerous lintels/rendering/plastering/making good/knowing what to use and when due to heat affecting materials/fitting chimney pots/breaking through walls to feed stuck chimney liners around difficult corners etc. Dealing with "too small" builder's openings and structural issues.
Working at height: fitting liners not for the faint hearted in many cases.
Hetas training is all classroom based and will not make up for on the job training (e.g. apprenticeship). There is a surprising amount to learn and digest. I would however suggest that this is the easiest part of the road to becoming a stove fitter.
Tiling and laying of slate/granite etc.: (hearths).
Plumbing: During excavations there will often be a back boiler to deal with (sometimes live, sometimes not but one has to know ones plumbing).
The ideal candidates for Hetas training are people with the above range of skills. Ninety percent of a typical stove install (create opening and hearth and line chimney) is building work. A reasonably experienced builder would likely make a good stove fitter.
Some might suggest that "different trades can be brought in". In my experience customers do not warm to this idea.
"Ripping people off"? Customer and tradesman agree a price before work starts, both stating that they are happy to proceed. There is only one Tom Cruise in the world so he charges a fortune for an hour of work... is he ripping people off?
Regarding Steamerpoint's own stove fitting questions:
Stoves below 5kw do not need an air vent unless the property is new build.
If a liner is not being used a full smoke pressure test MUST take place. Two people are required - one warms the chimney (blowtorch), lights a smoke pellet and seals up the fireplace. The second is by the pot and bags the pot when he sees smoke. the smoke s now sealed in the flue and is left inside for five minutes whilst the property is checked for smoke escape.
There are various ways to connect black vitreous flue pipe to a pot liner and it is permissible.
A "register plate" is metal and used to seal a chimney when there is no liner (e.g. a brick or stone might fall down the chimney and hit the plate and make a hole where the smoke can escape - so it must be strong). A "closure plate" can be another type of non-combustible material (e.g. fibreboard) and is used to seal the chimney when there IS a liner (e.g. fit a stainless liner and the chimney sealing plate is called a closure plate and not a register plate). In the case of connecting the black pipe directly into the pot liner then one might argue there is a grey area here?? I believe one can use a closure plate in this situation as the flue is a sealed system. If in doubt one would fit a metal plate.
A sensible post Goldspoon and thank you for some clarity around the connection of a fluepipe to a clayliner.
These claypipe adaptors seem like a good idea:
http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=106092
As for fees, it is a shame when supply and demand are so out of kilter that the tradesman can effectively charge what they want and equally it is a shame when it goes the other way and qualified tradesmen have no work to earn a decent living, as in the case of general builders with the construction industry at a virtual stop at the moment!
As you say, that's capitalism and it can seem unfair at times.
With the state of the economy being what it is right now, money is hard to come by for many people which is why many hit a brick wall when they discover the costs associated with connecting a stove to their existing chimney. We are fitting a stove because we like the idea of a roaring fire over the winter months, but some people turn to solid fuel because they can no longer afford gas. The slightly cheaper cost of heating with wood is an attraction to them so can you see why the high HETAS costs are unfair.
They are hitting folk, who already have money problems, the hardest!
I appreciate that a HETAS engineer is unlikely to be unskilled. Like many domestic engineering roles, training of many varied skills are required and as I have already said, people can die if the job is done incorrectly.
I have a great deal of respect for HETAS engineers, because as a trained engineer myself (On aircraft) I know how challenging things can be and often, no two jobs are the same, despite appearing to be idential at the start. I just wish that they could be more compasionate when times are hard for everyone. Whatever happened to that Britain of old when people would help each other for free, or for the price of a coffee or tea? I'm not saying HETAS engineers should do anything for free, but they seem to have moved into a stratosphere of their own, totally disconnected with the rest of the economy. If they continue as they are, come the revolution it will be MP's, Bankers, Traffic Wardens and HETAS engineers that will be the first against the wall, because they have upset too many people along the way.
These claypipe adaptors seem like a good idea:
http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=106092
As for fees, it is a shame when supply and demand are so out of kilter that the tradesman can effectively charge what they want and equally it is a shame when it goes the other way and qualified tradesmen have no work to earn a decent living, as in the case of general builders with the construction industry at a virtual stop at the moment!
As you say, that's capitalism and it can seem unfair at times.
With the state of the economy being what it is right now, money is hard to come by for many people which is why many hit a brick wall when they discover the costs associated with connecting a stove to their existing chimney. We are fitting a stove because we like the idea of a roaring fire over the winter months, but some people turn to solid fuel because they can no longer afford gas. The slightly cheaper cost of heating with wood is an attraction to them so can you see why the high HETAS costs are unfair.
They are hitting folk, who already have money problems, the hardest!
I appreciate that a HETAS engineer is unlikely to be unskilled. Like many domestic engineering roles, training of many varied skills are required and as I have already said, people can die if the job is done incorrectly.
I have a great deal of respect for HETAS engineers, because as a trained engineer myself (On aircraft) I know how challenging things can be and often, no two jobs are the same, despite appearing to be idential at the start. I just wish that they could be more compasionate when times are hard for everyone. Whatever happened to that Britain of old when people would help each other for free, or for the price of a coffee or tea? I'm not saying HETAS engineers should do anything for free, but they seem to have moved into a stratosphere of their own, totally disconnected with the rest of the economy. If they continue as they are, come the revolution it will be MP's, Bankers, Traffic Wardens and HETAS engineers that will be the first against the wall, because they have upset too many people along the way.
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I think something has been missed, a lot of the calculations have been based on these guys working a full five day week and their income has been based on that.
I personally think they are quoting a market rate that makes them a living and not a fortune as they probably only work three/four days a week not through choice, if they're lucky.
The reason for this assumption is the manner of places Ive seen them advertise for work.........adverts which to me seem to be slightly desperate.
No one gets 100% of the jobs they quote for including HETAS fitters, there's many questionable and illegal ( unapproved stoves in smokeless zones ) installations and unregistered installers kicking about.
Supply and demands is as old as humanity.
I personally think they are quoting a market rate that makes them a living and not a fortune as they probably only work three/four days a week not through choice, if they're lucky.
The reason for this assumption is the manner of places Ive seen them advertise for work.........adverts which to me seem to be slightly desperate.
No one gets 100% of the jobs they quote for including HETAS fitters, there's many questionable and illegal ( unapproved stoves in smokeless zones ) installations and unregistered installers kicking about.
Supply and demands is as old as humanity.
Steamerpoint";p="2569871 said:Nice try FiremanT.
60% profit is still a lot of profit at £400 a day (Double what heating engineers and plumbers charge) and at this rate they can still afford to take half the month off sick and still earn the same as a plumber who works the whole month!!
As a GS RGI, I, personally, don't PLAN to work for only £200 per day, although it very often happens! Most plumbers and certainky gas guys are the same. If I was working a contract which guaranteed me a full working day, with no evenings spent quoting (or Sunday mornings - see below) and organising books etc, I would work for less.
You forget that I am self employed, run my own business, have large overheads and expenses
Why would you imagine I forget anything?
(can't take holidays or sick days,[/i]
Well, I suggest that you seek alternative employment. No one should have to work every week wih no holidays. But you are earning greater than £42K.
so please don't tell me the life of a HETAS engineer is all costs, hard work and no fun!
I don't actually recall me or anyone else suggesting anything of the sort!
The simple truth is that HETAS engineers are ripping off the general public because they can! Don't get me wrong, I would probably do exactly the same if I was in that position,
Mmm. So your thread is purely sour grapes?
but any HETAS engineer that tries to justify these prices is having a laugh. If they are not earning enough from a £400 a day salary, they need to have a good look at their business model
Who said they are nort earning enough?
A two man team that can charge £1000 a day (I have had quotes of £550 per person per day - £1100 a day plus parts) for labour are bringing in £132,000 a year EACH, if they only work 5-days a week and don't have holidays
I think you would find they enjoy VERY NICE holidays
or sick days
if you are sick, you are sick. Don't climb a roof with a broken leg, is my advice,
a tax accountant (Which is actually a saving because accountants save more money than they cost)
Actually, ann accountant will help you pay less than you otherwise would. Quite different from SAVING.
They should also be VAT registered so everything they buy is VAT deductable and tax deductable. Phone calls, diesel, servicing costs, stationary, protective clothing, tools etc. Even that van and the indemnity insurance is tax deductable.
Normal misunderstanding. VAT registration ALWAYS costs, unless you sell mainly food, kids clothing or renewables.
Just for the record, a HETAS engineer is popping over to see me on Sunday morning, so I guess they do work every day then!
I'm guessing you are too busy to see him during the week. And you will pick his brains for a few hours on a Sunday, and he won't earn a bean. And if you do give him the job, remember that those hours have to be added to the job hours when you write here to complain about his charges.
I would remind you that I have acknowledged that HETAS guys are doing well, charge a lot, and take advantage of the market. But so do log suppliers.
Anyway, why have a messy woodburner, when convenient and efficient gas fires and stoves are available?
FiremanT obviously likes a good debate. By breaking down your opponents post sentence by sentence you can attack each part in detail, thus destroying any shred of credibility it may have previously had!! Hmm...
The bottom line is that HETAS engineers charge high fees because they can, not because they need to justify their lack of sick pay, need for holidays, pension plans or even free quotes. They are no more highly trained or qualified than other specialist building trades that charge significantly less and I believe that it is possible for them to earn more than our doctors & surgeons that have undergone several years of full time training, just to keep their earnings in some sort of perspective!
Being VAT registered does save them money. Actually, please tell me where there is a tangible cost, other than adding 20% to the bill (So perhaps the purchase of a calculator) and completing the tax return every three months?
They are effectively living in a VAT free world because everything they buy, which they can claim is for their business is tax & VAT deductable. That includes things like the van they bought, the tools they use, the radio they listen to on the job, even if it never leaves their house! The VAT man doesn't care as long as they charge us customers VAT on our bills. It costs them nothing to charge us and they can then claim the VAT back on all their related expenses, even if some of them are not true expenses!!
Tax accountants will apportion things against tax & VAT like a percentage of the engineer's mortgage, council tax, electricity bills, phone bills etc should the engineer work from home for example. We started our business from home around 20-years ago and saved a fortune, so anyone that says using an accountant is not a form of saving is clearly mistaken or being VAT registered is a cost rather than a saving unless they are selling goods, is completely wrong. Goods & services attract VAT and a HETAS engineer is clearly selling services.
Put it this way if HETAS engineers are VAT registered (And I think all are) then one or both of these statements are true.
1. The engineer can reclaim VAT on costs associated with his business that saves him money. (As I have just stated above)
and/ or
2. The business has an income greater than £77,000. (Current UK VAT registration threshold.
If they do not sell goods or services over £77k per year, they don't need to charge VAT. They all do, so they must have chosen to charge it (Because it suits them to do so) or been forced to charge it because they are minted. Hmm.....
Sour grapes, your dead right and I am assuming most people that read this thread will be feeling the same! I am guessing most of us are not earning more than £77k per year with or without holidays or sick pay.
As it happens, I did not request a quote on a Sunday. This is when I was told he could come round, so perhaps he is busy earning £400 a day Monday to Saturday and fits his quotes in between going to church and his Sunday lunch!! If he wants to give up his Sunday to do the free quotes, that's up to him, but then I guess he is keeping the other days free to earn lots of money!
A messy wood burner could work out cheaper to heat the house, given that we are all at the mercy of the utility companies. Buying your own wood allows you to shop around and accumulate enough wood for the following winter. Heating your house for £200 in timber compared to £700 in gas makes a lot of sense to me, plus the wife thinks it is romantic, which can come with additional bonuses during the colder months.
The bottom line is that HETAS engineers charge high fees because they can, not because they need to justify their lack of sick pay, need for holidays, pension plans or even free quotes. They are no more highly trained or qualified than other specialist building trades that charge significantly less and I believe that it is possible for them to earn more than our doctors & surgeons that have undergone several years of full time training, just to keep their earnings in some sort of perspective!
Being VAT registered does save them money. Actually, please tell me where there is a tangible cost, other than adding 20% to the bill (So perhaps the purchase of a calculator) and completing the tax return every three months?
They are effectively living in a VAT free world because everything they buy, which they can claim is for their business is tax & VAT deductable. That includes things like the van they bought, the tools they use, the radio they listen to on the job, even if it never leaves their house! The VAT man doesn't care as long as they charge us customers VAT on our bills. It costs them nothing to charge us and they can then claim the VAT back on all their related expenses, even if some of them are not true expenses!!
Tax accountants will apportion things against tax & VAT like a percentage of the engineer's mortgage, council tax, electricity bills, phone bills etc should the engineer work from home for example. We started our business from home around 20-years ago and saved a fortune, so anyone that says using an accountant is not a form of saving is clearly mistaken or being VAT registered is a cost rather than a saving unless they are selling goods, is completely wrong. Goods & services attract VAT and a HETAS engineer is clearly selling services.
Put it this way if HETAS engineers are VAT registered (And I think all are) then one or both of these statements are true.
1. The engineer can reclaim VAT on costs associated with his business that saves him money. (As I have just stated above)
and/ or
2. The business has an income greater than £77,000. (Current UK VAT registration threshold.
If they do not sell goods or services over £77k per year, they don't need to charge VAT. They all do, so they must have chosen to charge it (Because it suits them to do so) or been forced to charge it because they are minted. Hmm.....
Sour grapes, your dead right and I am assuming most people that read this thread will be feeling the same! I am guessing most of us are not earning more than £77k per year with or without holidays or sick pay.
As it happens, I did not request a quote on a Sunday. This is when I was told he could come round, so perhaps he is busy earning £400 a day Monday to Saturday and fits his quotes in between going to church and his Sunday lunch!! If he wants to give up his Sunday to do the free quotes, that's up to him, but then I guess he is keeping the other days free to earn lots of money!
A messy wood burner could work out cheaper to heat the house, given that we are all at the mercy of the utility companies. Buying your own wood allows you to shop around and accumulate enough wood for the following winter. Heating your house for £200 in timber compared to £700 in gas makes a lot of sense to me, plus the wife thinks it is romantic, which can come with additional bonuses during the colder months.
Must admit the time it has taken me to wade through this thread has almost nullified the memory of the debacle that was the Eng v Oz rugby match!!
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