It not just the cost effective question - it's the overall energy in/energy out question as well. Seems hard to believe that the small energy savings of the B&Q generator justify the energy and environmental impact of producing the thing in the first place.tim west said:
hooking up altenative power to the house
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But it does when we all make those small savings, bit like the what's the point in turning a tv off rather than standby, it may not seem a great saving but over a year and multiplied by millions(population) it can be quite substantial.stevesey said:
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They are but you need a lot and cost is prohibitive to homeusers at the moment but in their small ways they can contribute say in charging batteries for small electronic devices and save on the cost of getting rid of disposable batteries. It's this small initiative that will go a long way to helping us cope with major changes in the future as planet resources run out.Crafty said:
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breezer
sorry to disagree Tim west
yes turning off tv is enviromentaly a good thing, but electric solar panels are not yet.
They cost a lot of money to produce good efficiant ones. Then the end user has to fork out buckets of money to get them, which means to get the money they have to work and drive to work more, its not yet worth it
look at solar garden lights what do they light one or 2 leds because that is all the el cheapo ones can do.
they are a good idea, but like the b n q wind turbine not worth it yet.
speaking of wind turbines there has been a diy one available for years, its commonly used on caravans and some boats, but i beleive they are over 1k, they look nicer then the b n q junk but you would need several of them to be of any use. (unless you live in a caravan or boat)
so untill solalr panels get chaeper / more efficiant switch tv off and use national grid
edited for typo
yes turning off tv is enviromentaly a good thing, but electric solar panels are not yet.
They cost a lot of money to produce good efficiant ones. Then the end user has to fork out buckets of money to get them, which means to get the money they have to work and drive to work more, its not yet worth it
look at solar garden lights what do they light one or 2 leds because that is all the el cheapo ones can do.
they are a good idea, but like the b n q wind turbine not worth it yet.
speaking of wind turbines there has been a diy one available for years, its commonly used on caravans and some boats, but i beleive they are over 1k, they look nicer then the b n q junk but you would need several of them to be of any use. (unless you live in a caravan or boat)
so untill solalr panels get chaeper / more efficiant switch tv off and use national grid
edited for typo
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B
breezer
got to agree with that.
not to mention 5 year gteee, but 10 year pay back
not to mention 5 year gteee, but 10 year pay back
But breezer you are agreeing with what i said?? Yes to power a house you'd need lots of them which is cost prohibitive, but it doesn't mean it's not possible to power a house, indeed community projects should be set up to power houses, albeit it might mean ugly solar farms but this again may have to be the sacrifice.breezer said:
Tim - we seem to falling over each other a bit this afternoontim west said:
I wasn't disagreeing with - just pointing out that it's not just about the cost to the consumer, you have to take account of the wider picture. If the B&Q generator only saves £10 a year over it's 10 year lifetime, that's £100 of electricity - now that's XKg of green house gasses saved, but how many kgs were made to producing the generator in the first place? Also is it made of recycleable components.
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breezer
tim west said:
No i am not agrreing with you at all.
the way it reads you seem to be saying one from b n q will be fine, it wont.
to use more than one is cost prohibitive. defeats the object
there is a house in MK that does have a very big wind turbine, not the size on a wind farm, it was put is as its a show house for energy efficency, done many moons ago, but they only did it to show what can be done, no mention of the price
Seems to be the casestevesey said:Tim - we seem to falling over each other a bit this afternoon
I wasn't disagreeing with - just pointing out that it's not just about the cost to the consumer, you have to take account of the wider picture. If the B&Q generator only saves £10 a year over it's 10 year lifetime, that's £100 of electricity - now that's XKg of green house gasses saved, but how many kgs were made to producing the generator in the first place? Also is it made of recycleable components.
Just to clarify, It may be the case at the moment that manufacturing against use is unbalanced but that could well be down to not many of the units being bought and used but multiply the usage and the manufacturing will probably be offset. In your argument you may be quoting as individual units but manufacturing on a bigger scale may not be the proportional equation you think it is with production line techniques.
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breezer
dont think so.
you are not telling me they only produce 1 / b n q store.
and waht about the 5 year gtee v 10 year payback
you are not telling me they only produce 1 / b n q store.
and waht about the 5 year gtee v 10 year payback
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ok this has strayed off topic a bit. For what it's worth, yes I already have solar pv panels installed, and they are feeding batteries, which then feeds an inverter. And I also have a Honda EU20i generator. So accepting I am where I am, and aside from all the good intentions about what to do in terms of harvesting renewable power mentiond above, I still would like some guidance on a) whether it is commonplace to pool neutral and earth together at some point from the output of a 230VAC gen or inverter. Some facts I can add are: 1) Both will put out 115V on L+N 2) neither have the earth joined to the neutral at source 3) they both already work my PC/TV/etc perfectly, in cable extension mode.
So in terms of connecting them up permanently, I have learned that if the MCB in the CU receives this kind of power, and because earth is termed 'floating' at the inverter/generator end, that it causes the MCB's in the CU not to trip in the case of a genunine fault? That's the part I need answering.
Anyone with experience of actually doing this or can give a concrete answer ?
Thanks.
So in terms of connecting them up permanently, I have learned that if the MCB in the CU receives this kind of power, and because earth is termed 'floating' at the inverter/generator end, that it causes the MCB's in the CU not to trip in the case of a genunine fault? That's the part I need answering.
Anyone with experience of actually doing this or can give a concrete answer ?
Thanks.
Keep the "alternative sourced" power totally separate from the "mains" supply up to the point of use. There you can have two sockets, one mains, one alternative and change the plug from socket to socket as required.
By using that simple method your earthing for the generator and inverter can be the best method for them. Thier method of earthing can be different from that of the mains supply.
Almost all modern electrical and electronic equipment will work on a 230 volt supply centre tapped to ground. If that is the way your generator is set up then use it that way but realise the "neutral" of the alternative sockets is 115 volts RMS from ground so for the alternative supply use DOUBLE POLE SWITCHED SOCKETS to cut both "live" and "neutral" to equipment and cables plugged into that supply.
The only problem is that in one room you will have effectively a multi phase supply with non synchronised frequency ( nominal 50 Hz but generators vary enormously in frequency ) which will have RMS peaks of 345 volts between the mains live and the alternative live and neutral ( which has this high volatge will depend on the phase angle difference between mains and generator at the time and will vary as frequencies and phase angles vary ). 345 RMS is 488 volts peak so insulation between mains and alternative wiring will need special consideration. This 488 will be exceeded when the generator overvolts when its load is reduced and until it's regulation corrects the error.
By using that simple method your earthing for the generator and inverter can be the best method for them. Thier method of earthing can be different from that of the mains supply.
Almost all modern electrical and electronic equipment will work on a 230 volt supply centre tapped to ground. If that is the way your generator is set up then use it that way but realise the "neutral" of the alternative sockets is 115 volts RMS from ground so for the alternative supply use DOUBLE POLE SWITCHED SOCKETS to cut both "live" and "neutral" to equipment and cables plugged into that supply.
The only problem is that in one room you will have effectively a multi phase supply with non synchronised frequency ( nominal 50 Hz but generators vary enormously in frequency ) which will have RMS peaks of 345 volts between the mains live and the alternative live and neutral ( which has this high volatge will depend on the phase angle difference between mains and generator at the time and will vary as frequencies and phase angles vary ). 345 RMS is 488 volts peak so insulation between mains and alternative wiring will need special consideration. This 488 will be exceeded when the generator overvolts when its load is reduced and until it's regulation corrects the error.
I'm not sure they ever will be, from memory they are 30something% efficient, so with all the technological advances in the world they can only ever get 3 times as good as they are now, which still wont be really be enough. but i agree solar for (pre)heating water is a good thing where the initial costs can be made economical.Crafty said:
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