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Softus said:
Who's responsibility is it then
how complicated is it to have an apprentice ?
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Who's responsibility is it then
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Softus said:For one thing, why is the future of the industry the particular responsibility of companies/businesses/traders already in it?Thermo said:
For another thing, why do you think that people who don't have an apprentice are on their a**es?
Long winded but worthy of a read...I hope
Without companies taking on on new trainees it will cease to exist in 40 odd years..the onus is on them, but sadly the mentality of some individuals and companies is diabolical.
I know of one company director of a resonable size (20 odd workers on the books plus subbies) building outfit who was also on CITB and FMB commitees...when he was approached every year about taking on a new trainee hes answer was always the same 'you must be joking'
Not what I would class as a responsible employer
Other trades, and in particular, for some reason plumbers (not digging you out Softus..or any other 'deaf an dummers') would say 'why should I take someone on, because in the future they will be competing with me'....... it was a good job their employer didnt have that attitude wasnt it
.I beleive its down the the government to get these kids trained up, they are the future of the industry...but theres no point in just dragging em of the dole and training them when there are no placements for the to go to...companies must show willing and take them on, so it is equal responsibility.
And I think that if a company is over a certain size then they should be made be law to take on one trainee per every x amount of staff...the building trade Levy is an Act of Parliament, why cant employment of trainees be one too?
A lot of damage was done in this industry when thousands of us went s/e in the eighties, too busy to take anyone and train them, then the government brought in the 'skills' scheme, pushing people through the system on six months..only to find no one would touch them with a barge pole.
Thats one of the things that has created the skills and labour void that the industry suffers from today
That and the funding issue of training...its ok for the CITB to recommend wages of 120 odd quid for new entrants (16+) but local council schemes only pay 50 quid a week, (I was on that 30 years ago!!!!!) and plenty of builders are paying way under the odds for a trainee, normally cash and its a case of 'dont bother with college, its all crap, I'll teach you the trade meself'...and the poor lad ends up spending 3 years on the shovel!
What incentive is al that for quality trainees? they can get more money in call centres, tescos and MacDonalds.
Softus said:For one thing, why is the future of the industry the particular responsibility of companies/businesses/traders already in it?Thermo said:
For another thing, why do you think that people who don't have an apprentice are on their a**es?
spoken like someone with either their head up their backside or someone trying to stir the pot. Do you employ people softus?
If an economy grows and more work is avliable any decent expanding company will look to take people on. You know and i know you cant train someone up overnight to do most of the jobs that tradesman do. It takes time and training. It is an investment in the future. So if there are no people coming through the training then there will be no workforce to deal with the extra work.
My company is expanding and i need to employ them. I need people that are at a certain level of competence to carry out the work we do. The local colleges dont do the courses because they dont get the funding. So even the young lad ive taken on cant get a decent course. Im prepared to make a commitment to his future and my companies by training him. We are only a small company but i can see what will happen to the various industries that dont do it. So thats why it is in their interest to do something and that is why it is their responsibilty along with the education system and the government to do something that actually works. Whats the point of the government training them if no one gives them a job.
Why do i think they are on their arses?
because i think they are taking the quick, cheap and easy short term fix to fill their labour shortages. In other words sitting on their arses rather than getting off of them to do something for the long term.
I hope that answers your question. Feel free to disect it into small quoted minute points if you wish, as you usually do to reply to it.
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We had an apprentice, its quite easy after the tax has been deducted from you wages you then pay your apprentice and deduct the tax that he is owing, when you register with the inland revenue now as an employer they send you a disc that works out how much tax and NI your apprentice should be paying so you just take this off the employees wages. One thing to watch out for though is that you have to pay an employers contribution towards the National insurance but the disc also works this out for you and if the lad is on an apprentice wage it shouldnt be to steep.
The disc even gives you a print off for the end of year return forms so you just simply transfer the data onto the form the Inland Revenue send you at the end of the tax year.
As for public liability because the employee will be working under your name this doesnt increase but you will need employers liability incase your employee has an accident at work or tries to claim off of you for anything, this cost us around £400 for the year.
Hope that help
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The disc even gives you a print off for the end of year return forms so you just simply transfer the data onto the form the Inland Revenue send you at the end of the tax year.
As for public liability because the employee will be working under your name this doesnt increase but you will need employers liability incase your employee has an accident at work or tries to claim off of you for anything, this cost us around £400 for the year.
Hope that help
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The conclusion of this reasoning is that there is a financial justification (for some companies) to take on new staff.Thermo said:
In that case, why use the word "decent"?
This doesn't make your company "decent" - it makes it sensible and competent.
A thing being in company's interest doesn't make that thing their responsibility.
Is this a trick question?
What [on Earth] do you think the long term prospects are for a self-employed sole trader's business?
(I haven't responded to the personal jibes in your post because, well, because they're just personal and irrelevant to the topic under discussion._
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why 'trick question'This was also a point I made though (see long winded post!!) ..the training and the funding for the training are seprate issues but equally important
Its easy though, to be synical about training citing it as purely a way for the government to make to unemployment figures look lower.
Theres no point in on mass sub standard training schemes churning out thousands of people if there are no jobs for them to go to.
They cant all go self employed and personally I dont think anyone should be allowed to go self emplyed until they have completed 1...an apprenticeship 2 at least3 years in the industry.
Well, the answer to Thermo's question has to be "There's no point", doesn't it?Zampa said:
Or is there another possible answer?
If not, then why ask a question to which the answer it obvious?
Is it because his username is Thermo?
D'ya see what I did there?
Thermo, I guess you're reading something into what I've written that isn't there, or it could be that you're bringing some baggage from another topic.
Either way, my questions were both genuine and straightforward. If you can't accept my point of view on the subject then perhaps you're not the person I mistook you for.
Either way, my questions were both genuine and straightforward. If you can't accept my point of view on the subject then perhaps you're not the person I mistook you for.
well since your questions have both been answered it would seem that you are being delibretly provacative and i certainly don't appreciate it.
Personally i care for the future of young people and anyone else who is prepared to get up off their backside and try to work and better themselves. I try and give back as much as i can and i know others do as well. It seems however that the system is against them and so are many of the companies that moan and whinge about lack of skilled tradesmen etc but do nothing about it or take on cheap foreign imports. I don't want to see the heart slowly being ripped out of this industry in the same way it has to many of our other industries. Either you cant see it, don't agree with it or are being provocative.
Personally i care for the future of young people and anyone else who is prepared to get up off their backside and try to work and better themselves. I try and give back as much as i can and i know others do as well. It seems however that the system is against them and so are many of the companies that moan and whinge about lack of skilled tradesmen etc but do nothing about it or take on cheap foreign imports. I don't want to see the heart slowly being ripped out of this industry in the same way it has to many of our other industries. Either you cant see it, don't agree with it or are being provocative.
Your preconceptions and assumptions are your problem, not mine.Thermo said:
It comes down to this - you made some questionable (and quite provocative) statements, I questioned them, and you provided half-ars*d answers laden with insults.
You said:
So I said:
And then you said:
So you run a business that employs some people. So what? Not everybody does, or can. If you want to limit your belligerent statements to those people who are the same situation as you, then go ahead, but you didn't. Instead, you lumped "tradesmen" into the mix, many of whom don't have the options that you have.
You made a mistake, and instead of being man enough to admit it, you're having a go at me. Well bring it on - give it your best shot. Hurl insults and, if you like, kick me down the stairs like a classic bully would. It won't make you right.
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