How to attach tall cupboards onto 40mm thick plaster

[opps]

No pull force exists when drive a screw into plug , all the force is towards the wall, frame fixings are very poor at resisting pull force and can easily be pulled out, they are intended to resist lateral force .Plugs regardless of collar can be buried in the hole.

If the OP were to drill a 7mm hole, how would they drive a 7mm plug with an 8mm collar in to blockwork that is 45mm from the surface?

Sorry, but I really don't understand your point about frame fixings. The cheaper ones that I linked to work on expansion towards the end of the long nylon plug.

If we assume that the frame fixing is 100mm long and the last 30mm is the part that expands, how can that be less effective than a 40mm plug that has exactly the same (expansion) profile and only expands at the final 30mm and is buried 60mm deep?

Sorry, but I can't see how your suggestion is better.

If I am wrong, an explanation will help both me and the OP. Tnx

 

[foxhole]

Just tap the plug into the hole, you can drive it in further with the screw being used or with a length of dowel .Frame fixings have a very shallow thread which makes them little better than ring shank nails which means they don’t expand very much and are easily extracted. They don’t expand anything like a screw as the shank is much smaller .

 

[Deleted member 174758]

If the OP were to drill a 7mm hole, how would they drive a 7mm plug with an 8mm collar in to blockwork that is 45mm from the surface?

Well, as @foxhole says, not all 7mm plugs have collars like the seemingly omnipresent (in DIY places) Rawlplug Unos do - decent trade plugs, like the ones we get from Hertings, Fischer and even Rawl, have either no collars at all, or minimal ones, so they actually will push through a 7mm hole in the Pb easily. Those collared Uno plugs are truly dreadful things.

If we assume that the frame fixing is 100mm long and the last 30mm is the part that expands, how can that be less effective than a 40mm plug that has exactly the same (expansion) profile and only expands at the final 30mm and is buried 60mm deep?

Frame fixings are very, very expensive when compared to 5 or 6mm wood screws and good old fashioned brown plugs. That's why wood butchers like me use them. Other than for window frames where you want to avoid metal to frame contact (e.g. for noise attenuation or to avoid bimetallic corrosion where steel meets aluminium, etc) there aren't many instances where they deliver major (or any) advantages

To install, I'd just thread the plug lightly onto the end of the screw and insert plug and screw into the 'ole. When the plug starts entering the hole in the masonry below you'll feel resistance. A couple of taps wiv yer knocking stick (hammer for non-Mancs) will seat the plug in the hole and it can then be tightened

 

[opps]

Just tap the plug into the hole, you can drive it in further with the screw being used or with a length of dowel .Frame fixings have a very shallow thread which makes them little better than ring shank nails which means they don’t expand very much and are easily extracted. They don’t expand anything like a screw as the shank is much smaller .

It is true that the height of the thread is often less than a wood screw, but that is because it only needs to cut in the nylon enough to let the screw reach the expansion section. A standard wood screw in a nylon expansion plug is no more secure just because the thread is deeper/taller. The critical factor is the shaft of the screw when considering expansion plugs.

BTW, although I have never come across them, you can purchase frame fixing plugs sans screw.

Frame fixing SXR without safety screw - fischer international

The fischer frame fixing SXR is a plug made from high-quality nylon. Thanks to its special plug geometry, the SXR can be used in solid and hollow building materials. The low drill hole depth saves time and reduces bit wear. Due to the low anchorage depth of just 50 mm, the frame fixing can work...

www.fischer-international.com

An 8mm frame fixing has a shear load of 0.71 kN in solid brick.

A "regular" 8mm plug has a shear load of 0.50 kN in solid brick.

Sources:

1. page 21- https://www.fischer.co.uk/-/media/f...ing---nylon-and-metal-anchors-for-frames.ashx

2. page 8 https://www.carona-reuter.com/downloads/brochures/4.General_Fixings_No_Bleed_18.12.12_sml.pdf

Both types of fixing are made by Fischer

I do however admit, that I am talking above my pay grade. It is not a subject that I have devoted much time to researching

BTW, if you pre-drill a pilot hole, a round/wire nail, in wood, will be more effective than one not pre-drilled. Drilling means that the grain doesn't have to split to accommodate the nail.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

BTW, if you pre-drill a pilot hole, a round/wire nail, in wood, will be more effective than one not pre-drilled. Drilling means that the grain doesn't have to split to accommodate the nail.

Old school trick for use with French nails (i.e. round wire nails): blunt the points on the cheek of the hammer (don't use the face as it will get damaged) before driving them in and they'll tend to split the grain less. Also nail down timber over length first and then saw the excess off if you can - splits are more likely near the ends of boards. That's why cut nails were always better for nailing down floorboards, they cut more like a chisel because they are so blunt (but they do require a heavy hammer - your average 16 oz knocking stick is a bit on the light side).

Second old school bit of info - oval nails drive easier and are less liable to split than round nails, providing you orient it with the grain

And to round it off with a third - if you do need to drill a pilot hole for small pins or nails (or screws for that matter), snip the head off of one of the pins or nails you are using with your nippers and chuck it in your drill. That will drill you a perfectly sized pilot hole without the need to search through a drill box (only to find you don't have the right size!). Works up to about 3 mm sizes