How To Control Storage Heaters Without A Radio Teleswitch?

[dfh101]

Hi Guys,

Would someone be able to advise on my queries, a bit long winded but hopefully will make sense.

I am thinking of changing from Scottish power (Comfort Plus) to Scottish hydro (Economy 10 plan)

This involves having the two meters and the radio teleswitch removed and a single rate meter installed before I can apply to transfer the supply, then once changed apply for an economy 10 meter, all of the process will take 2 months at best and 3 months at worst so i would have to act now.

Without a radio teleswitch what would be the best way to control the storage heaters together so they would charge up during the cheap period, I can get good quality individual time switches rated up to 3kw for the smaller 1.7kw and 2.5kw storage heaters but cant find anything that would be rated high enough for the larger 3.4kw model.

Reason for changing / other information:

I moved into my current house more than a year ago and its all electric with 3 storage heaters, panel heaters in the bedroom and fan heaters in the toilet, bathroom, kitchen and electric fire in the lounge.

Not a heavy annual user with 4200 domestic units used (£454) and 6081 heating units used(£318) so only £65 per month.

Having run the storage heaters for a winter (Nov - April) I did find that they could run out early evening but as they kept the house warm all day and the house was occupied during the day this was OK. The house wont be occupied as much during the day over the next winter so having a 4 hour charge period during the night (4.30 - 7.30) and 3 hours top up in the afternoon ( 1.00 - 4.00) with an additional 3 hours in the evening if required (8.30 - 12.30) would suit me better

I would also be able to take advantage of the cheaper rate for the washing machine, dishwasher and tumble dryer as well as they all have delay timers.

I did have 3 days last winter when the radio teleswitch was not activated and left the house with its main heating but it generally seemed to come on at 11pm go off at 3am and come back on again at 5am and go off at 8am.

Also,

Scottish power have said that the heating circuit would not be active if changed to a single rate supply so I am assuming that they would just leave the existing domestic circuit alone, The current domestic meter is rated to 80amps and the heating meter is also rated to 80 amps both fed from individual mcb's. Can you get a meter that can handle more than 80 amps as i would like to have everything connected so we could have hot water etc whilst changing over without having to arrange temporary rewiring.

Any help would be much appreciated


DFH101

 

[dfh101]

Right,

Maybe my post was a bit long so here' the simple one :

What can I put between the storage heater side of the heating mcb and the storage heaters to control with a timer the charging of the storage heaters. (Radio Teleswitch now removed by DNO)

Thanks


DFH101

 

[Lectrician]

If you have a single rate meter, you aint gonna have a cheap period!

 

[Deleted member 54734]

I have been told that E10 hasn't been certified to work with electric storage heaters.

When I get a job to install an E10 if the customer has STORAGE HEATERS I am not allowed to do it, radiators or no off peak load is fine but NOT STORAGE HEATERS.

Don't know why you have to change supplier if you want E10 as AFAIK Scottish power provide this tariff.

There are numerous OFF PEAK tariff's available not just E10 and comfort plus, in my area we supply a tariff called OPTION 14 that gives you 7hrs off peak in the day and 7hrs off peak at night (might be more helpful if your heat is running out too early).

Also ask about TWINHEAT A and TWINHEAT B.

Different area's supply different tariffs so it's probably best to ask what tariff's are available in your area.

If you have a single rate meter fitted all electric is charged at the same rate ALL DAY, so even if you do fit timers to your heaters they will still be the same price as any other time of the day.

 

[Jim2287]

Put in any time clock which is capable of switching the load
or a time clock controlling a contactor capcable of the load of the heaters


Sangamo timeclocks are big but should do the job

(didnt read main post so might not be any use.... quite a long one and im lazy )

 

[dfh101]

If you have a single rate meter, you aint gonna have a cheap period!

Hi,

Thanks for replying to my query.

I will have a dual rate meter fitted within six weeks once my transfer to scottish hydro goes through, I had to have the existing heating meter and the teleswitch removed so I would only have 1 meter which is required to change suppliers, once suppliers have been changed they will remove the existing meter and fit a dual rate meter giving 10 hours cheap rate electricity during 3 periods daily.

I have now found individual time switches from smiths that can handle up to 20A at £80 each but a solution at the board would be better and probably cheaper if it can be done.

I have seen time switches in place of radio teleswitches in the past. I am assuming they dont directly have the supply going through them as they would have to bear a very high ampage but control a block in the supply line that shuts the supply on and off like a central heating timer would send a signal to a boiler,

Would you know what i would need to get?


Thanks


DFH101

 

[Deleted member 54734]

I had to have the existing heating meter and the teleswitch removed so I would only have 1 meter which is required to change suppliers,

AFAIK not true.
Your new supplier probably didn't want the hassel of working out your current tariff if they didn't supply that tariff.

I have seen time switches in place of radio teleswitches in the past. I am assuming they dont directly have the supply going through them as they would have to bear a very high ampage but control a block in the supply line that shuts the supply on and off like a central heating timer would send a signal to a boiler,

Would you know what i would need to get?


Thanks


DFH101

There are TIMECLOCKS available which would switch your off peak load (Sangamo suggested above), your new E10 setup will incorporate either a TIMECLOCK or have a teleswitch built in.

If it is the same in your area as it is here (which I have very good reason to believe it is) the metering company will not fit you an E10 while you have storage heaters.

 

[dfh101]

AFAIK not true.
Your new supplier probably didn't want the hassel of working out your current tariff if they didn't supply that tariff.

Probably but they would not do it as there were 2 meters and a scottish power teleswitch, they do have a similar product but they would not offer it in my area.

If it is the same in your area as it is here (which I have very good reason to believe it is) the metering company will not fit you an E10 while you have storage heaters.

The electrician that came out from sp says that he would probably come out and change the meter to the economy 10 meter as they do all hydro meter changes in the central scotland belt.

There are presently no storage heaters in the house as I removed them in the spring, I have new ones in the garage ready to fit after the e10 meter is installed.

I did look at electric radiators but they would have cost more than twice the price and given my heating consumption they would not make sense.


Thanks for your help.

DFH101

 

[Lectrician]

The DNO may well povide you a pair of clean contacts if you ask, switched during off peak.

Use these (via a 6amp mcb or lower) to switch a contactor controlling the board.

This is how it is done for TP supplies and larger commercial supplies.

 

[Deleted member 54734]

I suppose if no storage heaters are fitted there's nothing to stop me installing E10.

I would still advise you to ask about other available tariffs as E10 is not certified to work with storage heaters (this could be for a good reason).

I know scottish power do Option14 that is certified to work with storage heaters and will give you 14 hrs of off peak through the day.

And I know scottish hydro do an economy18 tariff which might be certified for storage heaters.

 

[dfh101]

Right then , I have a 16amp rated sangamo timeclock which they have confirmed would be fine for switching a contactor,

Now I need a contactor.

Had a look, there are hundreds of different ones, amps and poles?

I can get a new mem autoline 80amp 2 pole contactor for £40 or a new mem autoline 50 amp 4 pole contactor for £20.

The storage heater side of the mcb is connected to 1 main live and 1 main neutral that feeds the rail, I take it that only the live supply would be connected to the contactor and then to the mcb and the neutral cabling would stay as is?

Total load maximum would be 8.4Kw or 34amps.

Which one would be best?

Thanks for your help so far.


DFH101

 

[dfh101]

Shameless bump for the evening crew

 

[electronicsuk]

80A 2-pole is the right choice, the 4-pole could be used but is just making your life unnecessarily difficult as you'd need to share the load across the two pairs of contacts.

EDIT: Scrap that, just noticed the 4-pole contactor is rated high enough to handle the load of your heaters on just one pair of contacts. I'd still choose the 2-pole to keep things as simple as possible, but the 4-pole will also work.

 

[dfh101]

80A 2-pole is the right choice, the 4-pole could be used but is just making your life unnecessarily difficult as you'd need to share the load across the two pairs of contacts.

EDIT: Scrap that, just noticed the 4-pole contactor is rated high enough to handle the load of your heaters on just one pair of contacts. I'd still choose the 2-pole to keep things as simple as possible, but the 4-pole will also work.

Thanks

I wont be fitting the stuff, just need to have it for when the new meter is installed, if its the same guy from the dno that took out the old heating meter he said he would fit it if i had it.

 

[samtheman1k]

Hi,

I am in a similar situation, but am trying to connect the Gledhill Electramate Wet central heating system.. THis is an electric boiler that requires 2 inputs, an on peak and off peak (that dictates the mode the boiler works in, dependant on where the off peak supply is available). However, the E10 tariffs require a single meter & thus single output.

This means that I'd need to connect one input from the boiler direct to the main supply (via an RCD, obviously), and the second off peak input to the main supply via a timeswitch that is set to activate at the same time as the E10 tariff. The boiler is rated at 9.5kw, i.e. 40Amps & thus a contactor is the only way of doing it as timeswitches aren't rated high enough.

I haven't actually done this yet, as am a bit nevous but seeing that I'm not the only one trying to do this, means I'm not mad!