I'm sorry to be a broken record but ...

[Odds]

Search for the post where I put the ONS figures up. Similar rates every year, for 50 or so years, before the reduction and eventually abolition of the penalty, and then a dramatic rise ever since. Those figures were irrefutable; if you want to show me wrong you will have to give different figures.

You must know where you put it, so off you go...i just recall you saying one thing and Denso(?) proving otherwise.

 

[denso13]

Search for the post where I put the ONS figures up.

Search for the posts where your arguments were comprehensively proved wrong. As always...

 

[ajohn]

don't call it a life sentence.

There are various types of sentence. There is a need to know which one the judge has ordered.

Life sentences​

When a court passes a life sentence (sometimes called an indeterminate sentence) it means that the person with a conviction will be subject to that sentence for the rest of their life. A judge must specify the minimum term (sometimes called the tariff) a prisoner must spend in prison before becoming eligible to apply for parole. The only exception to this is when a life sentence is passed with a ‘whole life order’ meaning that such an prisoner will spend the rest of their life in prison. A life sentence always lasts for life whatever the length of the minimum term.

Mandatory life sentences​

Parliament has decided that if a person is found guilty of murder, a court must give them a life sentence. A person may also be given a life sentence for offences such as rape or armed robbery. The judge will set a minimum term (the tariff) an prisoner must serve before they can be considered for release by the Parole Board. The prisoner will only be released once they are no longer deemed to pose a risk to the general public. If released, an person with an conviction serving a life sentence will remain on licence for the rest of their life. They may be recalled to prison at any time if they are considered to be a risk to the public. They do not need to have committed another offence in order to be recalled.

Whole life order ​

For the most serious cases, a person may be sentenced to a life sentence with a ‘whole life order.’ This means that their crime was so serious that there is no minimum term set and that they will never be released from prison.

Discretionary life sentences​

There are a number of crimes for which the maximum sentence for the offence, such as rape or robbery, is life imprisonment. This does not mean that all or most people convicted of those offences will get life.

This from a prisoner's family help page. Likely to be correct.

Public opinion ended the death sentence. Ruth Elis bought that to a head. Also mistakes never happened did they.

 

[JP_]

This is because of the lack of proper sentencing.

No, it's because some men think its OK and women are often ignored. So many women are attacked by men that are clearly stalking them, and often if they call the police they get ignored. Criminals don't tend to consider the sentence they might get if they get caught - they act on impulse and believe they'll never get caught!

 

[denso13]

No, it's because some men think its OK

Andy blames the courts, not the criminals.

 

[Deleted member 18243]

Denso(?)

Who?

No, it's because some men think its OK and women are often ignored.

Yes, because our soft sentencing has allowed them think it's OK.

Criminals don't tend to consider the sentence they might get if they get caught

Yes, they don't have to consider a sentence because they aren't gonna get one!

To prove my point that punishment works, take the example of cannabis. The police have massively scaled down their pursuit of people for possession of this drug, and as a result its vile smell is prominent in towns and cities all over Britain, at any time of day or night. Going back to my youth 40 - 50 years ago when drug takers knew they stood a good chance of being arrested / fined / jailed this was not the case. They had to do their foul deeds in absolute secrecy and security and the rest of us didn't have to put up with the filth of it.

 

[JP_]

Yes, they don't have to consider a sentence because they aren't gonna get one!

Convicted rapists get maximum terms. But it really is a case that when they are drunk/high, they don't consider the implications of getting caught, they are entirely focused on the present moment.

"Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment"

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf

People really should watch the Ch4 documentary I posted earlier. Rapists are bold as brass, stalking women past police officers, and into hotel lobbies and following them all the way to their bedrooms. They do this because people turn a blind eye.

 

[Odds]

To prove my point that punishment works, take the example of cannabis. The police have massively scaled down their pursuit of people for possession of this drug, and as a result its vile smell is prominent in towns and cities all over Britain, at any time of day or night. Going back to my youth 40 - 50 years ago when drug takers knew they stood a good chance of being arrested / fined / jailed this was not the case. They had to do their foul deeds in absolute secrecy and security and the rest of us didn't have to put up with the filth of it.

Is it possible you smell the legal smoke of CBD products?

 

[IT Minion]

You must know where you put it, so off you go...i just recall you saying one thing and Denso(?) proving otherwise.

The murder rates have increased steadily and consistently since being recorded. Your chart shows only that.

Not Denso, unless any has soiled himself in the same way on another thread.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

There are some misunderstandings about what a life sentence is.

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence. That means even if a murderer is reformed and released on licence after say 10 years in jail, they can be recalled to prison at any point for pretty much any offence. The sentence is never spent either under rehabilitation of offenders legislation. Minimum terms are exactly that, the minimum they have to serve. No matter how well reformed they become.

Someone sentenced to life with a min of 38 years, is not eligible for parole until that time and only then if he can prove he is fully reformed. His chances will be slim, but who can say what will be in 40 years time.

What you have to balance is the cost of housing prisoners who no prospect of getting out. For them there can be no incentive to behave and it costs a lot to house such prisoners.

First bib. In certain cases, reform (in terms of working towards possible release) shouldn't be an issue as they should never be released. Especially if the perpetrator kills a younger person, they have denied that person possible decades of life. A 30 year old murder victim might have had another 50-60 years ahead of them. So why should the person that took that away ever have the chance of freedom? Equally when you see these cases of an elderly person being murdered e.g. burglary, although they don't have years of life ahead of them, their life is ended in a horrific way. Again, lock the murderer up for (actual) life.

Second bib, we should be investing in WLT prisons i.e. Whole Life Tariff. As I say in other threads, as a country we p1ss enough £££ against the wall in 'waste of time' initiatives, so why not throw a few billion at this, giving the victims and families proper justice.

For me, it has nothing to do with thinking the perpetrator should be breaking rocks 20 hours a day and carrying them from a to b then back again. However it should be as straightforward as giving murderers whole life tariffs where they have killed in cold blood with no significant mitigating circumstances.

And don't get me started on sentences in general. Pathetically low in many cases. I read a case the other day where a driver was two times over the drug driving limit and driving without insurance etc. He piled head on into another car and left the 4 occupants with significant injuries, can't remember if life changing.

His sentence? 3.5 years in prison. Pathetic.

 

[Odds]

First bib. In certain cases, reform (in terms of working towards possible release) shouldn't be an issue as they should never be released. Especially if the perpetrator kills a younger person, they have denied that person possible decades of life. A 30 year old murder victim might have had another 50-60 years ahead of them. So why should the person that took that away ever have the chance of freedom? Equally when you see these cases of an elderly person being murdered e.g. burglary, although they don't have years of life ahead of them, their life is ended in a horrific way. Again, lock the murderer up for (actual) life.

Second bib, we should be investing in WLT prisons i.e. Whole Life Tariff. As I say in other threads, as a country we p1ss enough £££ against the wall in 'waste of time' initiatives, so why not throw a few billion at this, giving the victims and families proper justice.

For me, it has nothing to do with thinking the perpetrator should be breaking rocks 20 hours a day and carrying them from a to b then back again. However it should be as straightforward as giving murderers whole life tariffs where they have killed in cold blood with no significant mitigating circumstances.

And don't get me started on sentences in general. Pathetically low in many cases. I read a case the other day where a driver was two times over the drug driving limit and driving without insurance etc. He piled head on into another car and left the 4 occupants with significant injuries, can't remember if life changing.

His sentence? 3.5 years in prison. Pathetic.

In the same light; how does Anne Sacoolas only recieve an 8 month suspended sentence for causing the death of Harry Dunn, despite leaving the scene of the accident, hiding behind diplomatic immunity and leaving the country to avoid justice leave any sense of fair play?

 

[IT Minion]

£50k a year per prisoner on average. £80k for higher risk ones.

I don't see the point in locking up pensioners who are no longer a threat. Let them try to find accomodation they can afford and struggle to feed themselves like everyone else.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

£50k a year per prisoner on average. £80k for higher risk ones.

I don't see the point in locking up pensioners who are no longer a threat. Let them try to find accomodation they can afford and struggle to feed themselves like everyone else.

Because if you take someone's life in cold blood, you should never (in my opinion) taste true freedom again, even for a day.

 

[motorbiking]

Its worth having a look at those with WLT.. Quite a few have murdered while in prison. One because he was hungry it appears.

List of prisoners with whole life orders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 18243]

Convicted rapists get maximum terms. But it really is a case that when they are drunk/high,

Being "high", as in intoxicated on an illegal drug is (yet another) crime; if proper sentences had been used there would not be drugged people at large. Being high should never, ever be used as mitigation or as an excuse for a crime, it should be treated as an aggravating factor and an additional crime to be tried / sentenced / punished.

"Research shows clearly that the chance of being caught is a vastly more effective deterrent than even draconian punishment"

I agree 100%, but with proper sentences there would be fewer criminals at large to be caught, the public would be safer and the Police Force's workload lesser.

Is it possible you smell the legal smoke of CBD products?

Don't be silly.