Increasing load for dual machine use in utility

[Dylan T]

I have a standard 13A 2 gang wall socket in my utility with a washing machine and clothes dryer plugged in. Running both machines wasn’t an issue but after upgrading one that must have a higher power draw (didn’t think to check) the socket has blown.

I don’t know yet if that socket is part of a ring or is a spur (pulling out the machines to get access is a job for later) but I’m trying to find out I add a new socket does that give me an extra 13A to play with no matter if it’s either? Being able to have only one machine on at once really hampers what I can get done in my limited chore time!

Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

What does "the socket has blown" mean?

 

[Dylan T]

Sorry badly worded. The circuit tripped and I’m the process the switch on the socket has stopped working with a strange smell inside. I realise that’s an anomaly but Google suggests it was stupid to run boh at the same time anyway

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is true that some badly made double sockets do not like two such loads on at the same time but it is not clear which sockets are which.

If the socket is on the ring circuit you could change it for two single sockets -

but if it is on a spur then strictly speaking you should not.
For some strange reason the regulations allow a double socket on a spur but not two single ones despite that being better.

 

[Dylan T]

It is true that some badly made double sockets do not like two such loads on at the same time but it is not clear which sockets are which.

If the socket is on the ring circuit you could change it for two single sockets -

but if it is on a spur then strictly speaking you should not.
For some strange reason the regulations allow a double socket on a spur but not two single ones despite that being better.

Thanks that's super helpful, thanks - I was actually wondering this very thing. So really it's not crazy to expect to run this kind of load on a double, can I blame the switch, or is it not recommended? In the meantime I can take that faceplate off and see if it's a ring or spur and go from there.

 

[SUNRAY]

Can I make a bold suggestion and say the first question should be: What are the ratings of both machines before discussing how the socket is connected?

 

[ericmark]

I looked at the drier and washing machine in my own house, both in the Utility room, so I selected two sockets to extend from with a fused connection unit, so neither would be overloaded, but when I looked at the ratings, there was really no need.

My drier uses around 600 watt (measured with a plug in energy meter) and washing machine peaks at around 2.2 kW but for a very short time.

I now can supply around 5 kW from the battery, but to start with, the battery would only supply around 3 kW, so to use the free solar power, I do try to ensure too many high-powered machines don't run together.

The washing machine does not have that much water in it, and it only uses high power when heating the water, so a 15-minute delay between turning on the washer until the drier is turned on, will in the main reduce the total load to under 3 kW, so I will come downstairs in the morning, make my coffee, then turn on the washer, drink half the coffee, then turn on the drier. OK, I do have plug in energy meters, and also the solar panel app and the smart meter also show what is being used, but in the main, apart from having a shower, power use is under 3 kW at any one point in time.

We are told to work out volt drop as 20 amp centre of the ring, and 12 amp even spread, and in the main a double socket rarely supplies over 20 amp, and before solar, I would run two one cup boilers together (6 kW total) to make coffee in the ads on TV, both on the same 4 way extension, and only blown the 13 amp fuse once. Not what should be done, clearly, but the boiler ran for such a short time, the 13 amp fuse would supply both boilers.

Using the old vented drier, at 2 kW it would take around an hour, and at 1 kW setting around 90 minutes, so always used the 1 kW setting. There was a switch at the back, so not easy to change 1 to 2 kW. New drier does not have an option, the heat pump runs or does not run so 600 watt is not adjustable by used, I do note, with some loads, it does turn the heat pump on/off even when continuing to tumble dry. And it takes 2.5 hours, so a pain to work out if enough sun to use it.

I would love to have re-settable trips rather than fuses in some cases to protect the cables from over heating, easy to reset a trip, not so easy to renew fuses. The fuse to work has to melt metal, so in general gets hotter than trips, but the fuse is in the plug, not the socket, so although some heat will travel down the line pin, the socket should really not overheat due to a 13 amp load, or even two 13 amp loads with a twin socket, the exception is special sockets, be it RCD, of surge protection, specials are often limited to 13 amp for the pair, but there is nothing in a standard socket which should heat up, unless there is a fault, i.e. poor connection. If a socket is damaged, the only option is to change it. There has been some debate over so-called socket protectors, unless marked BS1363 they should not be put into a BS1363 socket, and fitting one not marked BS1363 can strain the socket, so increasing the chance of a poor connection. Personally only changed one socket in this house as faulty (other than smart sockets) and that was due to water ingress.

 

[SUNRAY]

There has been some debate over so-called socket protectors, View attachment 362652unless marked BS1363 they should not be put into a BS1363 socket,

Thay should be f*****g banned, when I see them in public venues I ask them to dispose of them, when they refuse; my party piece is to pull one out, turn it upside down and insert it into the earth and give it a decent thump to make sure it is fully in and it often snaps off. There is usually some objection about my actions and then I let them know they have a dangerous installation which needs attention. I won't say what I usually do next. However they quickly remove the rest.

 

[ericmark]

Thay should be f*****g banned, when I see them in public venues I ask them to dispose of them, when they refuse; my party piece is to pull one out, turn it upside down and insert it into the earth and give it a decent thump to make sure it is fully in and it often snaps off. There is usually some objection about my actions and then I let them know they have a dangerous installation which needs attention. I won't say what I usually do next. However they quickly remove the rest.

I have told them are sockets now need replacing as unauthorised equipment has been plugged in and may have strained the socket, causing danger, but although NHS has now banned them, they are still in sockets in the doctor's waiting room.

 

[SUNRAY]

I have told them are sockets now need replacing as unauthorised equipment has been plugged in and may have strained the socket, causing danger, but although NHS has now banned them, they are still in sockets in the doctor's waiting room.

A local hall has eventually banned them however a pre-school booking insist on using them every week and there is little to nothing that can be done to stop them.
However the bigger problem the hall has with sockets is wallwart adapters, the type which have a 'shoe' style adapter slot for different nations adapters. All too often people remove their charger when they leave without realising they have left a bit behind with exposed live metal parts and often more difficult to remove from the socket than those horrible plastic bits of crap.

 

[Dylan T]

Can I make a bold suggestion and say the first question should be: What are the ratings of both machines before discussing how the socket is connected?

Fair point! I'm aware that the draw fluctuates a lot but in peak operation it seems that the tumble dryer is 2300 and the washing machine is 2800.

So I'm guessing on the same socket is a no-no. What's strange to me is most seem to do it! It seems trying separate sockets is the way to go although in my head that still makes me concerned for the circuit itself and it's strange to me given all the regs we have that a separate circuit is not required.

 

[ericmark]

it's strange to me given all the regs we have that a separate circuit is not required.

The load current in any part of the circuit should be unlikely to exceed for long periods the current-carrying capacity of the cable (Regulation 433.1.5 refers). This can generally be achieved by:
(i) locating socket-outlets to provide reasonable sharing of the load around the ring
(ii) not supplying immersion heaters, comprehensive electric space heating or loads of a similar profile from the ring circuit
(iii) connecting cookers, ovens and hobs with a rated power exceeding 2 kW on their own dedicated radial circuit
(iv) taking account of the total floor area being served. (Historically, limit of 100 m² has been adopted.)

This is from the appendix 15 so not actually part of the regulations, but it seems we should supply non-portable equipment over 2 kW from a dedicated supply, seem to remember portable is under 18 kg or on wheels, so washing machines often do have wheels.

But more down to history, in my first house, the twin tub was dragged into the centre of the kitchen, and while in use, no food preparation took place, so the only load in the kitchen was the twin tub. We would not use a drier and washing machine together, the drier was the car port anyway, the best drier we have ever had, my parents had a Bendix which clearly was not portable it was bolted to the floor. But it was hot and cold fill, using the hot water from the aga stove, so the load was not that high.

Son lived in a narrow boat for a time, with a 4 amp MCB it would trip, but a 6 amp MCB would hold with the washing machine, as the time it draws 2.4 kW on a cool wash is that short. In real terms, only the drier is a problem. And today with the heat pump drier that problem is removed. But using the washer 15 minutes before the drier is likely enough to ensure the heating element of the washer not on at the same time as the heater for the drier.

 

[ebee]

It is true that some badly made double sockets do not like two such loads on at the same time but it is not clear which sockets are which.

If the socket is on the ring circuit you could change it for two single sockets -

but if it is on a spur then strictly speaking you should not.
For some strange reason the regulations allow a double socket on a spur but not two single ones despite that being better.

I reckon that is to counter the temptation of one or both singles on a spur (or spur on spur) getting changed to twins so increasing permitted load of those sockets on a 2.5 conductor. It probably happened a few times so they then thought "Hmm! how do we address that risk?". Just my opinion

 

[EFLImpudence]

I reckon that is to counter the temptation of one or both singles on a spur (or spur on spur) getting changed to twins so increasing permitted load of those sockets on a 2.5 conductor. It probably happened a few times so they then thought "Hmm! how do we address that risk?". Just my opinion

Then that is a daft reason.

 

[SUNRAY]

Fair point! I'm aware that the draw fluctuates a lot but in peak operation it seems that the tumble dryer is 2300 and the washing machine is 2800.

The standard for testing double sockets is something like (I'm happy if anyone corrects this as it's been many years since I read it) : load one socket with 14A and the other with 6A for one hour for a maximum temperature rise of 10°C, there is more to it than that but those are the salient points.

5100W at 230V is 22.2A if running full power. Our current washing machine is rated 2850W but when tested it has never exceeded 11A {2530W}), in this house washing machine has cohabited a double socket with a dishwasher initially and now tumble drier for 30 years.

My personal view is running your 2 machines on the same socket should not be a problem, I'd likely suggest not using a cheap brand.