Iraq

[johnny_t]

So, we can create all the conspiracy theories we want, many may be true, but we'll all be confined to the margins (loonies) and not taken seriously by the established-media-believing majority. It won't make a blind bit of difference: we are, literally, powerless

Unless....

Nothing wrong with a good conspiracy theory because it shows people are at least thinking about the official line and whether it holds water or not. Some will be true, some won't, but there will always be those who will respond to any dissent with some cheap jibe about Kennedy or The Moon Landings, as if that disproves any future hint of wrongdoing by governments.

Far more dangerous are those peole who say 'I don't believe in conspiary theories' (and they do exist) as what these people are saying is actually 'I believe the official line I am fed on everything'. Now that is a recipe for disaster...........

 

[snozzer]

Iraq, mostly Sunni , but sometimes Shiite

 

[noodlz]

Iraq, mostly Sunni , but sometimes s****

It's the other way round since the "liberation!"

It's true what Johnny says, it's good to keep an open inquisitive mind. I don't dismiss what may appear on the face of it conspiracy theories outright, but do put more importance to what has been done for sure (as sure as one can ever be!) and what can be done about it. Yes, I saw Farenheit 911 and it does raise a lot of questions, which the media at large do not tackle.

I was in the US the day after they attacked Iraq and it was frightening to me how gullible many Americans were to blindly believe the official line...many of their views have changed now. If we can suspend judgement and see things from another angle we might see more of the picture. The media over here does appear to have its blind spots too and it is interesting to hear perspectives from the East, who themselves may have their own biases, but do help fill in some gaps.

Politics can be a dirty business and the lengths to which some will go is not to be underestimated.

 

[pickles]

Look. Time is short and I have a suitcase to pack but I have to say, how can intelligent people, which you clearly are, believe a conspiracy theory about 9/11. Just for starters how do the "interesting facts" in any way overcome the following:

It happened on live TV.

Bin Laden and Al quada (sorry I can never spell that right) claimed it, have never denied it and constantly remind America of it. Al quadas biggest problem has been getting the arab world to believe them, they think the Israelis did it.

The hijackers were religious Saudis who have made televised last statements admitting their part in it.

There are witnesses in the USA who taught the pilots to fly. They became suspicious because none of them wanted to learn how to land.

Cockpit recordings have recorded the hijackers talking in arabic, shouting at the passengers in broken english, yelling "allah akhbar" and murdering the crew, who scream in terror.

Hundreds of Americans are missing from the planes and never went home. Where are they, were they in on the conspiracy and now sipping cocktails in the Florida sunshine or are they dead, murdered and thrown down a hole by the Government. Will their bodies ever be found, that's an awful lot of stiffs to hide.

You don't need to be a structural engineer to work out that the reason the towers collapsed was because a hot fire weakened the structure until it collapsed after it had already been pummeled by hundreds of tons of aeroplane travelling at 300 mph. Have you ever seen the steel structure of a car after a 30mph impact, what do you think a steel girder would look like after being hit by several hundred tons at ten times the speed.

If explosives were used to bring the towers down how were they got into the building past the security, the staff who worked there 24 hours a day and placed in the structure (not on it, in it, ie drilled into the steel or the blast would simply be deflected without breaking the steel) behind the walls wired up and then detonated (conveniently just below the level of the impact point) without anyone becoming suspicious. How many conspiritors would that take, several hundred working day and night for months

Had you ever heard of Rumsfield et al before 9/11, no you hadn't had you. Why not, simply becuause no one had a use for them. Bush was being criticised for ignoring foreign policy issues not trying to start wars in foreign countries.

Why would 9/11 be useful to america, it's never needed an excuse to attack anyone before. It didn't need an excuse to invade Vietnam or Grenada, or to destabilise every government in South America

On the one hand people criticise America for not listening to the rest of the world and doing as it pleases and then they accuse them of blowing themselves up so they have an "excuse" to do things.

Why would America want to invade Afghanistan, it's a ****hole with nothing in it.

If America needed an excuse to attack al quada Iran or whoever it already had them. Mogadishu, beirut, Lockerbie the USS cole to name a few.

Why did it need to start a war over oil. Assuming it is immoral and has no principles which is the usual criticism made of it why didn't it just rehabilitate Saddam who would have willingly sold it cheap oil.

 

[joe-90]

It's all to do with history.

The 'War on terror' isn't a war against a country but an ideology. That being Muslin Fundamentalism.

Therefore there was needed a new type of response to that threat - and the 'War on terror was born'.

It can be fought wherever and whenever Muslim fundamentalism raises its head. Clever huh?

However, to get the thing kicked off they needed an excuse, a major incident that they could hark back to time and again.

So how did they arrange it?

The CIA went to an old friend that has worked with them in the past. Someone that comes from a good 'oil' background. Guess what? He was on the payroll all along. Good old Osama.

So what they did they said to him"Look Osama, we something big, really big. We don't want to know what it is or when it will happen - but it has our blessing." Why do you think he's never been caught or bombed?

So the 9/11 plot was hatched.

The students that committed the act went to flying lessons.
They were reported as 'suspicious' to the FBI. So what happened? The CIA came along and said 'Butt out, we are handling this", and of course nothing was done and the plot went ahead.

The reason that Afghanistan was attacked is to circle Iran and with the added benefit of allowing the new pipeline to be built that will carry oil from under the sea at Kasakstan (sp).

There will never be democrasy in Iraq because it would be an Iranian-friendly Shia government.
What you will have is another pro-western Saddam type of government that rules with an iron hand - and sells cheap oil to the west.

Clever stuff huh?

Joe-90 knows these things.

 

[pickles]

No one had a ever heard of Muslim fundamentalism before 9/11 Joe. It became problem after it not before it, so why would they need an event to start a war over something that wasn't a problem

 

[joe-90]

No one had a ever heard of Muslim fundamentalism before 9/11 Joe. It became problem after it not before it, so why would they need an event to start a war over something that wasn't a problem

Where have you been hiding? There was a 'Panorama' type special on the rise of fundamentalism over 15 years ago.

 

[splinter]

Every country needs a enemy,I wonder who's quote that is

 

[pickles]

No one had a ever heard of Muslim fundamentalism before 9/11 Joe. It became problem after it not before it, so why would they need an event to start a war over something that wasn't a problem

Where have you been hiding? There was a 'Panorama' type special on the rise of fundamentalism over 15 years ago.

Oh so thats it then Joe, Bush watched Panorama and said "**** me boys we need a war"

 

[pickles]

Every country needs a enemy,I wonder who's quote that is

Yours

 

[splinter]

Every country needs a enemy,I wonder who's quote that is

Yours

Sadly not as all my knowledge is second=hand ,anyway I thought you was away for a week

 

[pickles]

Every country needs a enemy,I wonder who's quote that is

Yours

Sadly not as all my knowledge is second=hand ,anyway I thought you was away for a week

I am, I just haven't gone yet. Didn't get organised in time so I'm making a nuisance of myself here at the moment

Mrs Pickles has told me off for posting here instead of following her orders, Shes out of the room at the moment

 

[noodlz]

Look. Time is short and I have a suitcase to pack but I have to say, how can intelligent people, which you clearly are, believe a conspiracy theory about 9/11.

Pickles, there are conspiracy theories and there are conspiracy theories! Just because many may be outlandish, does not mean there is no substance to any. Unfortunately, the term ‘conspiracy theory’ itself already comes with the baggage of …’okay, here comes another crackpot idea!’ If you can see beyond the term, there is much information that is withheld from us that we have to try to work out for ourselves. Personally, I believe, that the 9/11 attacks were indeed carried out through Bin Laden. Whether anyone else had a hand in it, I don’t know. You may think that is ridiculous to even entertain the possibility that there could be anyone else involved such as America or its agency in any way, shape or form…fair enough, that’s your prerogative…but I would then also point out that not so long ago Iraq was implicated by America in the 9/11 attacks, which is now not spoken of. Sometimes countries do sacrifice their own people's lives to achieve an objective. Churchill, during Wolrd War II embarked on a targeting of German cities, to demoralise and weaken the Germans and to prevent British airfields, which were vital for the war effort and under threat at the time, from being bombed, as he knew in retaliation Hitler would probably bomb heavily populated British areas. This could be seen as a calculated sacrifice, but some may say it was effective.

16 of the 19 hijackers were indeed Saudi nationals, crazy extremists maybe, but not religious Saudis. I think they could well have been chosen by Bin Laden specifically because of their nationality not least as he has a long-standing grievance against the Saudi regime and would be quite happy to see Saudi Arabia take some heat for it. I do not think the US planned it, but I do believe the Bush administration has used it to further its political and personal aims beyond trying to address the attack itself, those responsible or preventing such a thing from happening again. Whether they had knowledge of it prior and did nothing is a frightening thought to comprehend, but not completely beyond the realms of possibility.

Had you ever heard of Rumsfield et al before 9/11, no you hadn't had you. Why not, simply becuause no one had a use for them. Bush was being criticised for ignoring foreign policy issues not trying to start wars in foreign countries.

Why would 9/11 be useful to america, it's never needed an excuse to attack anyone before. It didn't need an excuse to invade Vietnam or Grenada, or to destabilise every government in South America

Yes, I had heard of Rumsfeld before 9/11, but I didn’t know as much about him as I do now. What do you know about this man and his interests? I think your argument puts the cart before the horse…we only heard more about Rumsfeld when he, along with others such as Dick Cheney, were in stronger positions to implement their ideals. May I suggest you research the Project for the New American Century, its members, their interests, its aims, especially those stated before 9/11. You may start by googling or looking here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm

On the one hand people criticise America for not listening to the rest of the world and doing as it pleases and then they accuse them of blowing themselves up so they have an "excuse" to do things.

Now you’re debating Bush style, with total extremes as if they were sole alternatives.

Why would America want to invade Afghanistan, it's a ****hole with nothing in it.

That’s harsh…have you been there? It was a beautiful country, now shattered by many conflicts. Do you think an Afghan or many others could take anything you say seriously with such opinions? You do yourself a disservice.

Why did it need to start a war over oil. Assuming it is immoral and has no principles which is the usual criticism made of it why didn't it just rehabilitate Saddam who would have willingly sold it cheap oil.

Maybe he wouldn’t play ball?

 

[The Jeep]

You don't need to be a structural engineer to work out that the reason the towers collapsed was because a hot fire weakened the structure until it collapsed after it had already been pummeled by hundreds of tons of aeroplane travelling at 300 mph. Have you ever seen the steel structure of a car after a 30mph impact, what do you think a steel girder would look like after being hit by several hundred tons at ten times the speed.

If explosives were used to bring the towers down how were they got into the building past the security, the staff who worked there 24 hours a day and placed in the structure (not on it, in it, ie drilled into the steel or the blast would simply be deflected without breaking the steel) behind the walls wired up and then detonated (conveniently just below the level of the impact point) without anyone becoming suspicious. How many conspiritors would that take, several hundred working day and night for months

Pickles, dear boy, are you still there? You are clearly also an intelligent guy. My time this morning is short, too, but I have to say that you really ought to see the information that I have seen!.

It deals extensively with scientific and engineering data on tower collapse and how the twin towers (and, mysteriously WC7) could NOT have collapsed as described in the 'official' investigation, which even contained glairing errors with regard to the internal structure of the towers. Also, much is made of unusual activity before the 911 event with regard to fire drills and evacuations of the building. You can also see on the original TV footage, what appear to be 'squibs' being ignited at different levels of the towers prior to their collapse, etc, etc. That represents about 5% of the unusual evidence that requires further investigation - all presented on the two DVDs I mentioned, and also elsewhere.

I would be very interested to know what your views would be after viewing this information. Then we could talk on an equal footing, no insult intended. I have spare copies of these DVDs if you would like one sent, or anyone else for that matter.