Is adding an indirect cylinder to a combi boiler the right solution?

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Hello

I'm planning to create an ensuite shower room in addition to the main bathroom, I've got a 3 year old 35kW combi boiler but I know a combi isn't great for multiple demands on hot water. Just wondering whether an indirect cylinder would be the best solution and whether it would require major pipe reconfiguration.

The boiler and the shower room will be at opposite ends of the house and it already takes a while for hot water to get to the taps. Should the cylinder be closer to the showers or the boiler, or is there a better solution?

Thanks
 
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The "combi boiler" covers a host of units, my late mothers gas boiler was stored hot water, but you could turn the store off and have instant hot water if you pressed the "Eco" button on the boiler, and the amount of water stored would just about fill a bowl.

But with oil boilers, they tend to be floor mounted, and the boiler can't modulate, at least not enough to have instant hot water, so there is always a water store built into the boiler.

Electric showers were fitted when we moved in, they would not have been my selection, but to be fair they work very well, I find I use the electric in a different way to the hot/cold water thermostatic mixer valve shower. I knew the mixer shower took time to get hot, and stabilise the temperature, so I would turn on, and step back and wait for it to stabilise, we had rather a large shower rose, as if the flow was reduced too much it would go cold, I would get wet, step back and soap up, then step under it again to wash it off, and we likely used a good few gallons of water.

But the electric shower takes seconds to warm up, it has a smaller rose so uses less water with same pressure as the thermostatic valve type, and I turn it off to soap up, as the shower cubical is much smaller that the wet room we used before, then I turn it back on to wash off the soap, and the shower head can be hand held, if I had tried doing that in the wet room would have a snaking shower head as that much extra water was used. So likely cheaper using electric as so little water used compared with the one in the wet room. And electric far faster, likely used as much water as the electric just waiting for temperature to stabilise.

I have used a mixer tap shower where there was a circulation pump, so no wait for hot water to arrive, yes very good, but the delay getting hot water in my three story house is a bit of a problem, would I return to a mixer shower, yes I would, they are better showers, but would I pay out a fortune to do it, no, electric works fine.

But I was rather surprised when I had solar fitted, and with it an iboost+ that heats the DHW with an immersion heater using excess solar. The surprise was how much energy used to heat DHW, the iboost+ records how much power as it says "saved" today, yesterday, and last 7 days, since was using oil boiler and in summer it needed to run 4 times a week half an hour a time, know we used around 25 kWh of power to keep DHW warm, in fact a bit too cool, but using electric was using less than 3 kWh a week, remember not running showers, only hand washing. So it would have been cheaper even before I had solar to have used electric.

My electric shower is not very big, I note on the solar software draws around 3.5 kW from the DNO the rest from solar or battery. So likely only around 8 kW, we do have two electric showers, and a 60 amp DNO supply, never blown the DNO fuse, and looking at solar software unlikely it ever would.

The smart meter is a bit useless showing usage, bar graph on phone app, but solar shows far better history. Last time shower used had run out of solar and battery so this 1733663019445.png shows the load and power used with an electric shower. And my daughter travels to us to use our shower some 40 mile return trip, we hope to also see us, but clearly the shower she feels is better than her bath.
 
Thanks ericmark, that's very informative. Unfortunately an electric shower is a no-go for me, I've had one before. I might put one in a downstairs annexe type room as a back up if the boiler fails but for me a mixer wins hands down.

One day I'd like to look at solar panels but I thought any decent payback on that had long gone - is that not the case?
 
You can fit a cylinder that you mention to the boiler. Results will be much improved. Go for S plan but endure a bypass is fitted to the system
 
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Thank you DP. I've seen mention of S plan and Y plans but now it's relevant to me, I can find out more.

I see you can add zones to the S plan. The front of the house gets a low sun in the winter and you can get away with not having the heating on during the day, whereas the back of the house gets very cold. If I could split them into two zones and heat them separately that'd be great. If I were to separate upstairs from downstairs too, would that make it three zones or four?

I suppose you'd have to know the layout of the pipes to know whether the pipe reconfiguration would be difficult? It's mostly copper but there's a run of plastic where it's been diverted to the loft, is that a problem? Thanks
 
I presume you are talking about an unvented indirect cylinder? Has the cold mains water been surveyed? There needs to be a minimum mains dynamic cold water pressure and flow to ensure it would be suitable.

If it is an unvented then it will need 22mm cold mains supply and then ideally a 22mm outlet run to the main branch off points for the HW outlets. It will also need either an external access or a suitable internal drain for it's safety discharge points.
 
Has the cold mains water been surveyed?
No, although it's on a hill and the mains comes down from above. Is that a good sign? I presume/hope the installer would check that first?
If it is an unvented then it will need 22mm cold mains supply and then ideally a 22mm outlet run to the main branch off points for the HW outlets.
Where would the 22mm supply have to start - at the entry point to the house/stopcock?

It will also need either an external access or a suitable internal drain for it's safety discharge points.
If it goes near the bathroom could it discharge into the bathroom waste pipe?

Thanks for answering, it's helping me build a picture of how big a job it's going to be
 
Slightly off topic, I think a cylinder in or close to the bathroom is a good design. When I was in Australia I stayed at a place that had solar heating, and each bathroom had its own cylinder. This prevented any profligate user from hogging all the HW before it was replenished. The cylinder was ample for reasonable use. The HW runs were very short so it also avoided wastage waiting for it to run hot.
 
No, although it's on a hill and the mains comes down from above. Is that a good sign? I presume/hope the installer would check that first?
Elevation all depends on where the source is compared to the supply but most district mains are all pumped now so elevation wouldn't really come into it. You would think the installer would yes but I've been to some installs where an unvented just shouldn't have been installed and the client has had nothing but issues. It should be checked as part of a site survey prior to any recommendation of cylinder etc You would want to see those results too. You could also get the water supplier in to check the mains flow at their end just so you have an idea of what would may be achievable - just put in a call to say the mains hasn't been the best recently and could you get it checked, they usually do it FOC.
Where would the 22mm supply have to start - at the entry point to the house/stopcock?
mains supply pipe size dependent but ideally yes, from the mains entry point up to the cylinder, this is to maximise flow.
If it goes near the bathroom could it discharge into the bathroom waste pipe?
It could yes, if it's rated for hot hot water (>90deg), it would also depend on the route it would have to take .
 
Thank you. Should a cylinder size still be commensurate with the size of the house/number of people if the water is primarily being heated by the boiler? It's 5 bedroom (not fully occupied) but the upstairs cupboard I'm thinking of putting it in has an access panel to the eaves where there's quite a bit of electrical and loft plumbing, so I need enough space above to still get up there. Otherwise I'll probably have to put it near the boiler downstairs.
 
If you want a combi and an unvented to supply hot water at the same time, the mains cold water supply needs to be up to the job. If you currently experience a drop in shower performance if a toilet is flushed or a cold tap opened, then it is likely that you could spend a lot of money for very little or no improvement.
Ask yourself how often 2 showers are likely to be running at the same time. I have a 4 bed house with 2 showers and a 30KW combi. Even when we had 3 teenage kids living at home it was rarely an issue. More of a problem was the drop in shower flow if someone flushed a toilet. I upgraded the cold mains supply to the combi so that it wasn't so compromised by other draw offs being opened.
With a 35kw combi and adequate water supply, it is possible to run 2 showers at the same time. Performance will be a bit lower than peak, but how often is this really going to be a problem.
 
Ask yourself how often 2 showers are likely to be running at the same time
Not not disagree but IME It's not just about that. If anyone anywhere puts on another hot tap - kitchen etc, the shower would be impacted. IMO a combi is not suited to a busy household unless they are prepared to work around its constraints of really one hot outlet open at any time or alternatively there are very very specific hot and cold water outlets fitted where water restriction/saving is one of their key functions and loading is matched with the CW supply and HW output of the boiler gauged @ the coldest input.
 
Thanks Elkato531, thanks Madrab.

I didn't think that was to do with general water pressure, I thought it was one outlet taking precedent over another, is that wrong?

I grew up with an immersion heater where we had to wait for it heat up after every bath so I love that a combi boiler gives you hot water on demand, but I've found that's best when you live on your own. I don't want to be yelling 'turn the tap off, I'm in the shower' or negotiating over who has the first shower in the morning.

If it is possible to have the best of both worlds I'd like that. Am I right in thinking they way it works is that the boiler does the initial heating and the hot water then stays in the cylinder where the temperature is maintained until it's drawn?
 
In a combi or unvented set up, all outlets share the incoming mains water so that has to be your starting point. Get it tested for pressure and flow rate because if it can't supply enough water, neither option will give you what you are after. A cold water tank, vented cylinder and pumps can provide a more constant supply at outlets but it sounds like you have already got a converted loft space so its not really an option.
Really it comes down to your usage. If everyone in the house showers every morning for 15 minutes, there will be constant overlap and it will become a pain. You'll also use all the stored hot water from a large cylinder quite quickly. Reheat times are much better than in the bad old days but you still run the risk of running out. If everyone showers every 2 or 3 days for 5 minutes, you'll probably never have a problem whichever route you go down.
Sadly, hot water is often a compromise because of available space and less than perfect water supply but it can be mitigated by planning pipework carefully.
I'll repeat though, have your dynamic pressure and flow tested before making any expensive decisions.
 

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