Is There Life On Mars ????

[Big_Spark]

Gentlemen, I hate to burst your bubble, but researchers have recently shown how silicon can be used to form complex molecular formations similar to those used in carbon based life. They have also shown that a handful of other similar elements will do just as well so long as the environmental conditions are right.

Obviously on a Earth like world such life is unlikely to arise as carbon will likely be the dominant form used by nature, but I would urge you to not be so dismissive, nature shows us here on Earth, that if it can be done, nature will have a go. Remember that Octopus and squid do not conform to the usual rules when it comes to life, both rely on Copper for their blood instead of Iron, hence their blood being blue.

 

[Scoby_Beasley]

Octopus and squid do not conform to the usual rules when it comes to life, both rely on Copper for their blood instead of Iron, hence their blood being blue.

GOT IN HIMMELL !!! Does this mean the queen is an octopus ?? (Or is she still a german ??)

 

[pipme]

....... it would be very cool if they discovered life with a totally different chemistry to our own, and it is only a matter of time (something we have a lot of whilst we wait for the Sun to engulf the Earth!)

Oh no !! They are printing the blank immigration forms.. as we type .. We'll need a double decker Brit Isles at this rate ... work and live, on the lower deck, grow and party on the upper ... Better than robots eh ?

 

[2scoops0406]

You cannot build large complex molecules out of silicon

You certainly can; but don't take my word for it, ask a geologist.

No you can take it from a chemist

 

[felix]

I've had a think, and I guess carbon-based life is more likely (by our understanding of life anyway) because of the millions of organic compounds we already know about, but silicon doesn't really have anywhere near as many compounds

Surely most of those millions or organic compounds only exist because carbon based life happened. How many would we find on a lifeless planet. Maybe only carbonates (which organic chemists disown) and a few hydrocarbons. I suppose that if this hypothetical planet has electrical storms in its atmosphere we might also find amino acids and other precursors of life as we know it. By contrast the rocks of the UK fill a very large room.

The problem on our planet is that all those amazingly complex silicates were brewed up when the surface was molten. Once it cooled they became set in concrete and any chance for life to evolve was frozen in its tracks.

I just did a bit of looking and "silane", the silicon equivalent to methane, reacts explosively with oxygen!

It does indeed. Silicon has a tremendous affinity for oxygen but this is not a problem (except for a visiting astronaut). Free oxygen does not belong in the atmosphere of any planet. It's poisonous (ask a diver) and is implicated in the vast majority of fires. It's only here because the first plant-like organisms were so careless with their toxic waste.

 

[2scoops0406]

Silicon dos not polymerise, hence the problem. You cannot create anything resembling a protien, enzyme or DNA with a silicon framework.

 

[Big_Spark]

Eddie, I think you are simply assuming that the rules for silicon are the same everywhere, and trust me when I say they are not.

I will certainly agree that on Earth the conditions do not exist that allow the types of silicon structures being spoken about, but on other worlds were the environmental differences allow it, silicon will.

Simply look at the diversity of chemical habitats in our small solar system, think of the multitude of combinations that could exist in our Galaxy, let alone the Universe

 

[2scoops0406]

No, I'm not, silicon cannot polymerise under any conditions.

 

[Big_Spark]

No, I'm not, silicon cannot polymerise under any conditions.

Well according to researchers that know more that you and I combined, and probaly earn more than both of us combined, it can, just not on Earth. Apparently they did it on a supercomputer simulation. I'll try to find a link to the information and post it.

 

[2scoops0406]

Never trust computers, garbage in,.... etc.

I simply don't believe that you could ever get a silicon equivalent of DNA. The chemistry does not add up.

 

[Sparky Jim]

Never trust computers, garbage in,.... etc.

I simply don't believe that you could ever get a silicon equivalent of DNA. The chemistry does not add up.

Eddie M, this is not a discussion this Paddy has the knowledge to get into, but what I would say is this, and I do not mean this to be taken in a derogatory sense either.

I am sure your very good at your job, however, if your that highly placed in your field that you work at the cutting edge of research, why do you spend so much of your time here?

Do you see what I am saying? There is obviously research going on in this world that many of us could not hope to understand, and many, such as yourself, may think impossible. Please remember that flight was once thought a nieve dream, going to the Moon was considered madness until the middle of the 1960's. What you and I think improbable or impossible now, may be easy or possible tomorrow.

I am very interested in Astronomy, have been for the best part of 50 years now, but I do recall reading something recently that said that silicon based life, whilst unlikely, was not impossible. I believe it could be on a NASA AMES website.

 

[felix]

No, I'm not, silicon cannot polymerise under any conditions.

If you mean it cannot polymerise into the equivalent of hydrocarbons then I agree. It doesn't. That's why I've been speaking all along of the silicon-OXYGEN chain. This is the backbone of the majority of silicate rocks which, lets face it, means the majority of rocks!

As sci-fi writers have often failed to observe, a straight substitution of silicon for carbon is hopeless. The chemistry is different. There is no point looking for an equivalent of DNA either, if only because you cannot make silicon ribose, but who says DNA is the only way to store information.

There are at least two requirements for life to evolve:

1) It must be possible to build large, complex molecules in order to transmit information to the next generation.

2) These molecules must be weak enough to be broken down for re-use.

On this planet silicates pass the first test but fail the second. Meanwhile the acetoxysilane in my tube of silicone glue polymerises very nicely into rubbery stuff like no rock ever found on a geologists shelf.

 

[2scoops0406]

No, I'm not, silicon cannot polymerise under any conditions.

If you mean it cannot polymerise into the equivalent of hydrocarbons then I agree. It doesn't. That's why I've been speaking all along of the silicon-OXYGEN chain. This is the backbone of the majority of silicate rocks which, lets face it, means the majority of rocks!

As sci-fi writers have often failed to observe, a straight substitution of silicon for carbon is hopeless. The chemistry is different. There is no point looking for an equivalent of DNA either, if only because you cannot make silicon ribose, but who says DNA is the only way to store information.

There are at least two requirements for life to evolve:

1) It must be possible to build large, complex molecules in order to transmit information to the next generation.

2) These molecules must be weak enough to be broken down for re-use.

On this planet silicates pass the first test but fail the second. Meanwhile the acetoxysilane in my tube of silicone glue polymerises very nicely into rubbery stuff like no rock ever found on a geologists shelf.

1) Sorry, they don't, I havn't heard of a "complex" silicon based molecule. Saying that it may occur on different planets, is all very well, but it should be kept in mind that most of the carbon based products we humans use (plastic,) don't occur under natural earth conditions. The chemistry of carbon and silicon is very different (is there any S P hybridisation in silicon??)

2) OK, not sure about that one, hydrocarbon bonds are pretty stable.




A

 

[2scoops0406]

Never trust computers, garbage in,.... etc.

I simply don't believe that you could ever get a silicon equivalent of DNA. The chemistry does not add up.

Eddie M, this is not a discussion this Paddy has the knowledge to get into, but what I would say is this, and I do not mean this to be taken in a derogatory sense either.

I am sure your very good at your job, however, if your that highly placed in your field that you work at the cutting edge of research, why do you spend so much of your time here?

Do you see what I am saying? There is obviously research going on in this world that many of us could not hope to understand, and many, such as yourself, may think impossible. Please remember that flight was once thought a nieve dream, going to the Moon was considered madness until the middle of the 1960's. What you and I think improbable or impossible now, may be easy or possible tomorrow.

I am very interested in Astronomy, have been for the best part of 50 years now, but I do recall reading something recently that said that silicon based life, whilst unlikely, was not impossible. I believe it could be on a NASA AMES website.

Well, those are resonable points

 

[pipme]

Can you get Mars bars in batter these days ? Perish the thought , but some have a life on such a diet .. allegedly