Issue with neighbour over 'party wall'
- Thread starter Why-me
- Start date
Sponsored Links
How would the outer wall be built at a later date in the gap between the garages? The wall looks to be built same time as our garage was built. It's breeze block on inside brick outside.
Regardless, this doesn't even look like a party wall as the neighbours claim?
Sponsored Links
I don't know, all I can say is that's not a cavity wall, looks more like something someone would build to hide your blockwork garage, does it continue up the gap between your garage and their extension? If it were me, and I were planning to build on that outer wall I would want to be absolutely certain about where the boundary was.
The water has been further muddied by the neighbours lean-to. Even if the disputed wall is on the OP's side of the boundary the fact that the neighbours have enclosed it with the lean-to roof could potentially make it a party wall.
I confess that I don't know if a ramshackle lean-to would count as enclosure. I predict that this is going to get messy and expensive.
I confess that I don't know if a ramshackle lean-to would count as enclosure. I predict that this is going to get messy and expensive.
"The external wall which is neighbouring the boundary line sits on our side, anyone can see this." - so you are doing a boundary wall, you need to give them a Notice of proposed works under section 1(5) of the Act - Line of Junction Notice. You can provide this notice yourself, no acknowledgement is required for this.
Also, you MAY need to give them a Notice of proposed works under section 6 of the Act – Excavation and construction if you are building within 3 metres of their building AND to a lower level than the bottom of their foundations. Therefore you need to determine if you are building lower than the level of their foundations - which can be determined via trial pits, as your builder suggests.
You don't need to provide a party wall notice for a trial pits (note this is hand digging).
I suggest first you determine the depth of foundations you need and if these will be lower than the bottom of their foundations. If not then you do not need to issue a notice. The neighbours can course can appoint their own surveyor at their cost or simply rely upon your own. If the foundations are lower then you give them a Notice of proposed works under section 6 of the Act – Excavation and construction.
Talk to them, explain you can share information from your own engineer, surveyor etc and that you want to avoid enter a DISPUTE under the party wall act, while following the party wall act.
Also, you MAY need to give them a Notice of proposed works under section 6 of the Act – Excavation and construction if you are building within 3 metres of their building AND to a lower level than the bottom of their foundations. Therefore you need to determine if you are building lower than the level of their foundations - which can be determined via trial pits, as your builder suggests.
You don't need to provide a party wall notice for a trial pits (note this is hand digging).
I suggest first you determine the depth of foundations you need and if these will be lower than the bottom of their foundations. If not then you do not need to issue a notice. The neighbours can course can appoint their own surveyor at their cost or simply rely upon your own. If the foundations are lower then you give them a Notice of proposed works under section 6 of the Act – Excavation and construction.
Talk to them, explain you can share information from your own engineer, surveyor etc and that you want to avoid enter a DISPUTE under the party wall act, while following the party wall act.
Hopefully the OP has not appointed the party wall surveyor yet. Firstly, get the trial pits done as the party wall surveyor may not be required. If the neighbours want a agreed surveyor then get back here as its not often a good course of action for adjoining neighbours and I can give some information on why they should not go down that route under the act. and should be avoided in the majority of cases.
Contrary to what is written do not issue a party wall notice, unless you have sought legal advice...ie not a surveyor....
As a developer you have the right to develop unless you have been instructed otherwise eg a planning refusal or you permitted development rights have been removed. By issuing a party wall notice you are basically giving the right to constrain your development to your neighbour. They do not have that right. so guard it jealousy.
1. Does your proposed development fall under the act...https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#part-1-party-wall-etc-act-1996.
2. What happens if you don't serve notice - nothing there is no party wall act popo...its down to the owner of the other property to enforce. Your neighbor may seek to have an injunction about 2k. Mostly likely they won't as these are near impossible to get when other remedies are available...ie damages if something happens to their side. - and that's just to put it back as it was.
As a developer you have the right to develop unless you have been instructed otherwise eg a planning refusal or you permitted development rights have been removed. By issuing a party wall notice you are basically giving the right to constrain your development to your neighbour. They do not have that right. so guard it jealousy.
1. Does your proposed development fall under the act...https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#part-1-party-wall-etc-act-1996.
2. What happens if you don't serve notice - nothing there is no party wall act popo...its down to the owner of the other property to enforce. Your neighbor may seek to have an injunction about 2k. Mostly likely they won't as these are near impossible to get when other remedies are available...ie damages if something happens to their side. - and that's just to put it back as it was.
I say its neighbouring the boundary line but according to the architects plan, it sits within the boundary line.
The 'agreed' surveyor said that my notice was actually missing some information to make it a proper party wall act agreement, and its therefore redundant. I only mentioned on it that we are building on our existing garage and trial holes will need to be carried out, though I suspect foundations are good enough. I agree this opened a can of worms, due to my inexperience of these things.
Anyway as a good will gesture I said I will pay for the site visit for the surveyor to come down, he will then use his judgement to see if it is a party wall (it isnt) then he will relay that to them. The neighbours have basically gone off on one and want an 'expert' to tell them, they don't want to hear it from me. The surveyor has yet to send over his fee proposal for this but hasn't, yet neighbours still believe they've instructed him to come down (surveyor said no formal instruction). I said if they really want they can appoint a boundary expert £1350+vat, they just avoided answering that and said they are within their rights to protect their property and spoken to a solicitor etc etc.
At this point I think I'm wasting my time with them but just want to keep on good terms. I've also done the title plan etc for the gov website, which doesn't really show much apart from a line.
The 'agreed' surveyor said that my notice was actually missing some information to make it a proper party wall act agreement, and its therefore redundant. I only mentioned on it that we are building on our existing garage and trial holes will need to be carried out, though I suspect foundations are good enough. I agree this opened a can of worms, due to my inexperience of these things.
Anyway as a good will gesture I said I will pay for the site visit for the surveyor to come down, he will then use his judgement to see if it is a party wall (it isnt) then he will relay that to them. The neighbours have basically gone off on one and want an 'expert' to tell them, they don't want to hear it from me. The surveyor has yet to send over his fee proposal for this but hasn't, yet neighbours still believe they've instructed him to come down (surveyor said no formal instruction). I said if they really want they can appoint a boundary expert £1350+vat, they just avoided answering that and said they are within their rights to protect their property and spoken to a solicitor etc etc.
At this point I think I'm wasting my time with them but just want to keep on good terms. I've also done the title plan etc for the gov website, which doesn't really show much apart from a line.
After doing some searching I managed to come across a previous for sale advert. This is how the area behind their garage looks. I don't think this would've have planning permission or anything?
you can see the gutter that comes from between our garages to the end where they have a water butt in the garden
you can see the gutter that comes from between our garages to the end where they have a water butt in the garden
“The 'agreed' surveyor said that my notice was actually missing some information…”
The information required in the notice is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/3 . So not much.
However, it's worth noting that if you have been exchanging messages with your neighbours through an informal channel like What App without issuing a formal notice, it can still fulfil the Act's intention of encouraging direct discussion between the parties involved, as long as the necessary information is adequately conveyed.
You do not need legal advice either and you are not losing rights to your development.
"he will then use his judgement to see if it is a party wall (it isnt) then he will relay that to them." Regarding the classification of the wall as a party wall, it is essential to have your usual surveyor assess the depth of the foundations involved. If your foundations are deeper than your neighbours', the works may fall under the jurisdiction of the party wall act, even if the wall itself is not technically a party wall. In such a situation, it can be considered a goodwill gesture to involve the party wall framework (not the appointment of the party wall surveyor/dispute process), as being a good neighbour often requires mutual cooperation. I recommend explaining to your neighbours that you are keen to avoid unnecessary costs and entering the dispute process and are open to discussing the matter directly.
Additionally, it's important to communicate that no further actions will be taken until the depths of the foundations are determined through trial pits. This ensures that everyone is well-informed before proceeding. If your neighbours insist on appointing a surveyor when the party wall act does not apply, they would be responsible for covering the associated costs.
It's worth noting that the issue of the boundary is separate from the party wall matter, and any planning permissions obtained are not relevant to this specific issue.
However, based on the pictures you have provided, it appears that your neighbours have built upon your wall, which is causing difficulties for your own construction. In such a case, if you decide to proceed with the agreed surveyor route, the party wall award should include provisions for your neighbour to contribute to YOUR additional costs incurred by the work as a result of THEIR building on your boundary wall. You should inform them of this and explain that they would also be responsible for the costs of the works on their side, which would be addressed through their own counter notice. It's important to communicate that these costs can be substantial and that they would need to contribute to them in the near future. Alternatively, you can offer them an alternative, if unnecessary party wall surveyors can be avoided, you would be willing to ensure that your builder takes care of the necessary steps."
The information required in the notice is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/section/3 . So not much.
However, it's worth noting that if you have been exchanging messages with your neighbours through an informal channel like What App without issuing a formal notice, it can still fulfil the Act's intention of encouraging direct discussion between the parties involved, as long as the necessary information is adequately conveyed.
You do not need legal advice either and you are not losing rights to your development.
"he will then use his judgement to see if it is a party wall (it isnt) then he will relay that to them." Regarding the classification of the wall as a party wall, it is essential to have your usual surveyor assess the depth of the foundations involved. If your foundations are deeper than your neighbours', the works may fall under the jurisdiction of the party wall act, even if the wall itself is not technically a party wall. In such a situation, it can be considered a goodwill gesture to involve the party wall framework (not the appointment of the party wall surveyor/dispute process), as being a good neighbour often requires mutual cooperation. I recommend explaining to your neighbours that you are keen to avoid unnecessary costs and entering the dispute process and are open to discussing the matter directly.
Additionally, it's important to communicate that no further actions will be taken until the depths of the foundations are determined through trial pits. This ensures that everyone is well-informed before proceeding. If your neighbours insist on appointing a surveyor when the party wall act does not apply, they would be responsible for covering the associated costs.
It's worth noting that the issue of the boundary is separate from the party wall matter, and any planning permissions obtained are not relevant to this specific issue.
However, based on the pictures you have provided, it appears that your neighbours have built upon your wall, which is causing difficulties for your own construction. In such a case, if you decide to proceed with the agreed surveyor route, the party wall award should include provisions for your neighbour to contribute to YOUR additional costs incurred by the work as a result of THEIR building on your boundary wall. You should inform them of this and explain that they would also be responsible for the costs of the works on their side, which would be addressed through their own counter notice. It's important to communicate that these costs can be substantial and that they would need to contribute to them in the near future. Alternatively, you can offer them an alternative, if unnecessary party wall surveyors can be avoided, you would be willing to ensure that your builder takes care of the necessary steps."
Thanks jb44, that's pretty clear. Unfortunately I don't think the neighbours want to listen to our advice or anything we say.
What can be done about their lean to? They've built it right up against the wall, so shouldn't they have notified me or something?
I need to stay on good terms because the builder said scaffolding will need to overhang over their property for the extension, so I don't want it to seem I am threatening them with costs.
I've attached a picture taken from my garden, you can see the gap towards the front where the ivy is (previous picture).
What can be done about their lean to? They've built it right up against the wall, so shouldn't they have notified me or something?
I need to stay on good terms because the builder said scaffolding will need to overhang over their property for the extension, so I don't want it to seem I am threatening them with costs.
I've attached a picture taken from my garden, you can see the gap towards the front where the ivy is (previous picture).
Attachments
So after doing more searching and reading it seems its a type B party wall. They've basically enclosed their lean to against my wall and made it type b party wall. I have no legal documents or agreements for this - neither was I notified by solicitors about this when purchasing the house.
I'm getting more confused now. Where do I go from here?
I'm getting more confused now. Where do I go from here?
I think JB44's suggestion is the best way forward.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
