joe90 & any other holocaust deniers

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Why do people and the media go on so much about alleged Nazi atrocities while ignoring far greater atrocities committed by the Russians and others :confused:
Technically, the so "Holocaust" is an unproven case of Genocide as no independent investigation has ever been carried out by any reputable and impartial authority, most of the evidence comes from the Russians and the Nuremberg trials defendants most of whom as it is now acknowledged were subjected to torture to obtain confessions.
This of course doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't take place as claimed but until an impartial investigation is carried out there are always going to be sceptics.
 
George Orwell — 'Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.'


I don't deny the holocaust, I just can't find any proof to believe in it. When they do an international archaeological investigation - I'll believe the findings - whatever they be.

It's the eye witness statements that stopped me believing it happened as they said it did.

Do a Google on the subject with an open mind and see what you come up with.
 
I have no reason to disbelieve the figures but philosophically does it matter whether a regime kills six million or six? Once you kill a single person based on creed,race, sexuality, disability or any other difference, then you are evil. After that, it is just a matter of degree.


I'm not sure what is to be gained by arguing about the figures.

If it turned out that Hitler 'only' ordered a dozen deaths because of his Anti-Semitism then how does that affect your world view?

How does it make other genocides more or less reprehensible?

What would be the result of finding out it was one hundred thousand deaths, for example?
 
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What people need to ask themselves is this: Where did you get the information from that led you to believe in the holocaust? I bet you don't know. Like me, you were brought up to believe in it - totally without any proof whatsoever. Go on - ask yourself.
 
joe-90 said:
What people need to ask themselves is this: Where did you get the information from that led you to believe in the holocaust? I bet you don't know. Like me, you were brought up to believe in it - totally without any proof whatsoever. Go on - ask yourself.
Click to expand...

I suppose the same 'proof' as the rest of history?

Footage, eyewitness accounts of Allied, German troops, and Jewish people.
Nazi documentation. Conversations of German POWs secretly recorded.

Hitler planned to starve 30m Russians(or those peoples controlled by Russia.
This is documented too, but how I ascertain that this is genuine I do not know.

It just seems that the sheer entire weight of testimony is convincing , whereas the opinion of the Holocaust deniers seems mostly ( present company excepted of course!) to spring from nutters and anti Semites with an agenda.
 
“There is nothing so absurd that it cannot be believed as truth if repeated often enough.” William James.
 
joe-90 said:
“There is nothing so absurd that it cannot be believed as truth if repeated often enough.” William James.
Click to expand...

Also I think it was Goebbels who said if you are going to tell a lie, tell a big one and tell it often.

But there is really no reason to disbelieve the history books on this one, as there is nothing really convincing otherwise.
Happy to look at anything., where do you suggest I start?

But as per my previous post- how does it affect your interpretation of history, or the war?
And what number would you accept?
 
I too believed it all. I read the books like 'Five Chimneys', but when I looked further in the Internet age, I just started to have doubts.

Things like these 'facts' made me doubt. I still doubt today.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5QlWJUk4-o
 
joe-90 said:
I too believed it all. I read the books like 'Five Chimneys', but when I looked further in the Internet age, I just started to have doubts.

Things like these 'facts' made me doubt. I still doubt today.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5QlWJUk4-o[/QUOTE]


I'll watch that tomorrow evening, Joe.

So what have been the outcomes for you, given that you doubt the numbers?
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I'm open minded, but the numbers don't add up.

During the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s we were led to believe that 4 million people died in Auschwitz as part of the six million. In 1998 the figure was reduced to one million - that's three million off the total. In my universe the six million should have been reduced to three million. But it hasn't been. It's still six million. And of course the official red cross figure is 272,000.
 
Okay,

As I say, will get a chance later to look.
Two questions for me though

One- bluntly 'so what' ?
( Eg How does this affect our perception of the Nazis?)

Secondly, to what do you attribute the reduction, from pre- to post-war ,in the European Jewish population ?
 
Joe

Auschwitz was one of many concentration camps and extermination camps and not all of the deaths were in camps. The six million deaths were the total of the murders in all of the camps , ghettos and other locations where people were massacred.

Back to the original topic. The america soldiers who executed the guards were out of control and may have killed Germans who were not SS.

At many camps the SS abandoned the site when the Allies were seen to be close to getting to the camp. They left the camp in the hands of German military. Some of these military tried to help the prisoners.

If the Americans simply executed every German at the camp they may have killed people who had been trying to help the prisoners.

It is believed that some SS, un-able to escape the rapid Allied advance put on prisonner uniforms to avoid capture by the Allies.
 
The Americans have always been widely regarded as being trigger-happy.

When the British fired, the Germans ducked,
When the Germans fired, the British ducked,
When the Americans fired, everybody ducked."
 
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