Junction box socket spur

[Louis.]

Hi all, first post so go easy! I'm a novice to the electrical world but have been doing my research to ensure what I do is safe and correct.

Just moved into our first house and wanting to run some new sockets in as what is currently there is in odd places!

What I have noticed is that additional sockets have been added in the past but fitted in a bad manner. One socket spurs from another and is run under the bottom of the skirting which is obviously out of a safe zone! Lets also not talk about the backboxes being fitted with a knife and fork.

What I'm wanting to do is run a new socket so there's a double at either side of the bed. I had originally planned on spurring from the socket on the other side as this only has 2 cables running to it and is obviously on the ring main.

The property only has a single ring for both upstairs and downstairs sockets.

My plan had been to simply spur from this under the floor. However, I removed the underlay and there was an inspection hole and I found this junction box directly next to my new socket. My question is, can I run a spur from this? I worry as there's 3 cables out that it's already running a spur so I wouldn't be able to?

Any advice welcome!

 

[flameport]

can I run a spur from this?

No, as that style of junction box must be securely fixed to a surface, and the cables to it clipped, and they are not suitable for use in inaccessible areas either.

There is also the question of whether the circuit is actually a ring, or a mess created with multiple spurs.

 

[ericmark]

It is no good simply looking at the wiring, one needs to test.

Two cables 2.5 mm² in a socket could be.
1) A ring final.
2) A radial.
3) A fused spur.
4) An error.

And to identify 2.5 mm² or 4 mm² or 7/0.014 is not easy without trying in a go/no go hole, and even that does not help with aluminium or tinned copper.

 

[Louis.]

No, as that style of junction box must be securely fixed to a surface, and the cables to it clipped, and they are not suitable for use in inaccessible areas either.

There is also the question of whether the circuit is actually a ring, or a mess created with multiple spurs.

Thanks for the reply. The junction box was not secured inside the cavity under the floor and also has no cabling clipped. There's a joist right next to where it was, can I secure it to this?

Good point on knowing what that actually is. How do I go about tracing this?

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks for the reply. The junction box was not secured inside the cavity under the floor and also has no cabling clipped.

For what it's worth, just like millions of identical ones out there that have been in-service for decades! Whilst 'cable restraint' (securing the JB and clipping the cables to something 'solid') is, strictly speaking, 'required', I really don't know who it is that people seem to think crawl around underneath floorboards trying to pull cables out of JBs

There's a joist right next to where it was, can I secure it to this?

You could - but, as you've been told, that wouldn't really help, since, even if it (and the cable) were 'secured', that style of JB is not appropriate ('permitted') in an 'inaccessible' place (like under floorboards!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Louis.]

For what it's worth, just like millions of identical ones out there that have been in-service for decades! Whilst 'cable restraint' (securing the JB and clipping the cables to something 'solid') is, strictly speaking, 'required', I really don't know who it is that people seem to think crawl around underneath floorboards trying to pull cables out of JBs

You could - but, as you've been told, that wouldn't really help, since, even if it (and the cable) were 'secured', that style of JB is not appropriate ('permitted') in an 'inaccessible' place (like under floorboards!).

Kind Regards, John

I don't know how long this has actually been here for but the house is 40 years old.

Good point on the inaccessible bit, I missed that!

Back to my other question, is it better to then spur from the other socket IF I can prove its not a spur itself?

 

[ericmark]

As @JohnW2 points out, what should and what is done is not the same.

In my late mothers house I found a spur which should not have existed, so I fitted a 4 module grid plate, with a socket, fuse holder and switch to extend.

 

[flameport]

The brown junction box should be replaced with a more suitable alternative such as https://www.screwfix.com/p/wago-junction-box/7355f with the appropriate terminals in it. (terminals are supplied separately). Those have cable grips built in so the cables don't need to be clipped, although the box does need to be fixed to something.

It could be used to connect one additional socket but only if it really is the ring with a spur connected.

 

[Louis.]

Thanks all!

I was going to go with a j803 to replace this with, but if I can use this to spur from then I'd be better using wagos in a box.

What's the best way to find out where these cables come from?

 

[JohnW2]

I don't know how long this has actually been here for but the house is 40 years old.

It wouldn't surprise me if the JB has been there all the time.

Good point on the inaccessible bit, I missed that! Back to my other question, is it better to then spur from the other socket IF I can prove its not a spur itself?

Definitely, but that "IF" is the crucial thing.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks all! I was going to go with a j803 to replace this with, but if I can use this to spur from then I'd be better using wagos in a box.

You could use either.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Louis.]

Thanks again John. I'm happy to do things correctly and safely so if that means replacing this JB then that's fine.

Out of interest, would an access hatch then not deem the JB accessible, regardless of it being under floorboards? Which funnily enough the house doesn't have upstairs. It's just on sheeting below the underlay.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks again John. I'm happy to do things correctly and safely so if that means replacing this JB then that's fine.

Well, it's true that if it were being installed today (or, arguably, if you were going to connect 'something new' to the JB then, to be 'corret' in terms of current regulations, you would need to use a 'maintenance-free' JB.

Out of interest, would an access hatch then not deem the JB accessible, regardless of it being under floorboards?

You would probably need some popcorn and a fair bit of time to explore that question - in the absence of any official definitions, you'll probably get almost as many opinions as to what does, and does not, count as 'accessible' as the number of people who offer their personal view

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Well, it's true that if it were being installed today (or, arguably, if you were going to connect 'something new' to the JB then, to be 'corret' in terms of current regulations, you would need to use a 'maintenance-free' JB.

You would probably need some popcorn and a fair bit of time to explore that question - in the absence of any official definitions, you'll probably get almost as many opinions as to what does, and does not, count as 'accessible' as the number of people who offer their personal view

Kind Regards, John

In other areas there are definitions which I believe may be acceptable for JB's.

For example electrics under a bath are OK if a tool is required for access.

 

[JohnW2]

In other areas there are definitions which I believe may be acceptable for JB's. For example electrics under a bath are OK if a tool is required for access.

As I said, the discussion needs popcorn and time

The situation you mention in relation to spaces under baths does not seek to be a definition of 'accessible or 'non-accessible', either in the specific or general situation - it merely says that if the space beneath a bath is not accessible without use of a tool, then it is considered to be 'outside of bathroom Zones'.

If you nevertheless feel that you can extrapolate from that to the general situation of electrical joints (e.g. in JBs) is it therefore your view that a location which can only be accessed with a tool is "inaccessible'?

I have quite a lot of non-MF JBs etc. behind (very accessible) hinged doors/panels which can only be opened with the use of one of these (or various variants thereof) - per piccie below. Do you consider that to be an 'inaccessible location', and hence that the JBs should be MF?

... and what about your 'Control Panels', a good few of which I imagine can only be opened with a 'tool'. Do you believe that all the electrical jouints within them therefore must be 'MF'?

Kind Regards, John