keeping keys with prox tags safe

[sandyman44]

hi
was trying to think like a burglar about how I would defeat my alarm. we don't always go out taking all bunches of keys with us (we have loads, for cars, bikes, caravans, it would be a lot of metal to carry) and some of those bunches have prox tags on them. hence, there is quite often a bunch of keys in the house with a prox tag on it when we are out...
so if was able to break in quickly enough to be within the entry time to get to the hall where those keys live, I could use a prox tag to disarm before alarm went off, or at least silence the alarm if it had gone off. so, the keys need to be protected. alarm is pyronix enforcer self installed.

I was wondering if there was a way to do something clever, does such a thing exist as a key safe that can be linked to an alarm system? I was thinking along the following logic:
key safe left open in normal occupancy, has sensor that tells alarm if safe open or closed , when arm alarm, it refuses to arm if safe open (like a door contact). when arm alarm with door shut - safe locks. disarm alarm - safe unlocks. failsafe opening method with master key or combination. does such a thing exist, does it even make sense?

if that is a crazy idea, any recommendations for "normal interior" key safes?

ta

 

[Handymanjo]

Mag lock on safe box ?
When alarm is armed mag lock energies to lock safe box
When alarm disarmed mag lock de-energies.
You will need mag lock,additional power supply,output/relay board
A lot of work to install mag lock
Or
Keysafe with door contact or shock sensor
Or
Shot gun linked to trip wire on bunch of keys

 

[JohnD]

you could have the keysafe well away from points of entry

And actually lock it.

key safe left open in normal occupancy,

is not a safe.

You could have it mastered with your front door key.

 

[sandyman44]

Mag lock on safe box ?
Keysafe with door contact or shock sensor

how to attach door contact to typical domestic key safe? I assume they are made to be not easy to drill?

Shot gun linked to trip wire on bunch of keys

ROFL

 

[sandyman44]

you could have the keysafe well away from points of entry
And actually lock it.

all valid suggestions thanks but it doesn't fit the way I want to use it. If it was well out of the way , we'd never use it - it needs to be a convenient place to keep the keys that are used several times a day (so in practice, the hall area, perhaps cupboard understairs) if it was further away we'd never use it - the usage profile is not that of a "valuables" safe that I completely accept you might want somewhere more awkward. If it had to be locked all the time, we'd just get annoyed with it and not put the keys in it...I honestly expect I'd only lock it if going out. right now the keys just sit on a box on the hall table so its better than that...

You could have it mastered with your front door key.

good point hadn't thought of that thanks

 

[EightyTwo]

Just a little cupboard with a door contact on it? Program the contact as a normal alarm. Fit any kind of electric lock - maglock, lock strike, solenoid bolt... Via a relay, operate the lock from an OPEN/CLOSED (alarm set) output from the panel, just like Handymanjo suggested... I don't see why you need a safe, in fact, if your alarm is communicated in some way, you wouldn't even need the electric lock!!

Another trick is to use a microswitch on/in a regular key-operated lock. We used to do this with standard mortice locks for "lock set" applications where the alarm is set/unset by locking/unlocking the door. I'm sure you could use something similar on a cupboard or drawer latch.

 

[JohnD]

if you do go for a lock operated by the front door key, consider a nightlatch-type lock that will lock shut on being slammed.

As long as you are sure you have an emergency key hidden away is a safe place somewhere.

A BS nightlatch with automatic deadlocking, on a substantial door, is quite good.

You might be able to reduce the size of some of your key bunches by having other locks suited or mastered.

 

[sandyman44]

Just a little cupboard with a door contact on it? Program the contact as a normal alarm. Fit any kind of electric lock - maglock, lock strike, solenoid bolt... Via a relay, operate the lock from an OPEN/CLOSED (alarm set) output from the panel, just like Handymanjo suggested... I don't see why you need a safe

I guess that what I am positing is not really a safe in your professional/technical sense of the word. Its a strong(ish) cupboard, with a lock , the lock being set/unset to match the alarm state. so yes I was thinking exactly to use the alarm set output from the panel.
this guy https://www.amazon.co.uk/Holding-Electric-Magnetic-Electromagnet-Fail-Safe/dp/B00JERC00S says it will draw 0.15 amps@12vdc which is actually less than the rated 12v/250ma of the enforcer PGM output so could potentially drive it directly...

in fact, if your alarm is communicated in some way, you wouldn't even need the electric lock!!

my panel has the homecontrol/app etc so communicates to me in the usual way, not sure how/why that helps with this particular idea? or do you mean something else?

 

[Handymanjo]

PGM Output 70ma max
You will need a extra power supply to power a mag lock on enforcer panel

 

[scott1980]

What's wrong with a 4 digit PIN number?

 

[sparkymarka]

Lol same here if your that bothered use a code ....

 

[SandyLyon]

I think this post shows the frailty of using Prox Tags, plus if a handbag is lost or stolen, chances are it will contain all the information that a chancer needs to help him / herself to your worldly goods (address, house keys, car keys and a means to turn your alarm off before it has time to sound)

If a customer requests Prox Tags I always point out the pitfalls and let them think about it.

I usually recommend, 1 button set and 4 digit code.

 

[Nintendofan]

I think this post shows the frailty of using Prox Tags, plus if a handbag is lost or stolen, chances are it will contain all the information that a chancer needs to help him / herself to your worldly goods (address, house keys, car keys and a means to turn your alarm off before it has time to sound).

I've seen this said quite often and think if I was that thief and had stolen a hand bag with keys to a house would I realistically go and try my chances fullwell knowing that the potential victim probably knows the keys are missing and has either 1. changed the code to that proxy tag, 2. sat at home in the dark with a baseball bat waiting for would be thief?

In all seriousness I'm a key holder at work covering 3 sites, a warehouse and 2 retail shops. They have duel path monitored alarms fitted by an accredited local firm, they all have proxy tags, surely if there was an inherent flaw in this the insurance company would stop us using them at our last audit?

 

[OwainDIYer]

What about multiple proxy tag readers, and the tag has to be presented to the readers in turn, in a particular order?

Thus combining something you have (tag) with something you know (order combination).

Or use a keysafe with a drop chute, so the safe doesn't have to be unlocked to return keys to it, only to take them out.

 

[sandyman44]

What about multiple proxy tag readers, and the tag has to be presented to the readers in turn, in a particular order?
Thus combining something you have (tag) with something you know (order combination).

yes would be interesting if you could do a proper two-factor. could simply be tag + pin, if the panel supported it. which would logically be the same as what most enterprise VPNs use for remote access.

Or use a keysafe with a drop chute, so the safe doesn't have to be unlocked to return keys to it, only to take them out.

yes been looking at products to do that. I think diy'ing a box with electric locks is above and beyond what I am trying to do.