Kitchen Downlight Advice Needed (Spacing & Brightness)
- Thread starter RS3000
- Start date
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not you too liam..
LV is NOT 12V.. LV includes mains voltage..
LV is 50Vac to 1000Vac.. ( or 120Vdc to 1500Vdc )
if you mean 12V then please say 12V.. or ELV..
LV is NOT 12V.. LV includes mains voltage..
LV is 50Vac to 1000Vac.. ( or 120Vdc to 1500Vdc )
if you mean 12V then please say 12V.. or ELV..
No.
Neither - you need a fundamentally different approach which does not involve the use of 50mm recessed lights, no matter what type of lamps you use in them.
Don't use small recessed downlights.
Hi Mav,
Have you yet found out if the positioning of your joists will cater for your proposed layout?
I note that you are still debating what to do, but you could be in for a sudden re-think when you come to fit them if you have not bothered to locate joists or other obstacles.
Poorly set out lighting can look bloody awful and no matter how powerful your lamps are, they are not going to shine straight through someone's head to get rid of the shadows. However, i must say that given a good bit of planning, normal recessed D/L's can look great.
Why don't you consider 230V LED's at the outset instead of worrying too much.
You could revise your switching method to employ 5 switches.
1 for under cab light.
2 for dining area ( 1 for 3 centre and 1 for 6 outsides.)
2 for kitchen ( 1 for 3 centre and 1 for 6 outsides.)
You would have quite a number of switching permutations giving varying amount of light in different areas for differing needs. Multiply these options by the number of standard 230v GU10 options you have.
Low energy
minimum of install fuss, no need for transformers.
Pay back of cost of lamps versus energy use starts immeadiately.
Flexibility later on reduces the design headache you have now.
Like Sergei says.....
Have you yet found out if the positioning of your joists will cater for your proposed layout?
I note that you are still debating what to do, but you could be in for a sudden re-think when you come to fit them if you have not bothered to locate joists or other obstacles.
Poorly set out lighting can look bloody awful and no matter how powerful your lamps are, they are not going to shine straight through someone's head to get rid of the shadows. However, i must say that given a good bit of planning, normal recessed D/L's can look great.
Why don't you consider 230V LED's at the outset instead of worrying too much.
You could revise your switching method to employ 5 switches.
1 for under cab light.
2 for dining area ( 1 for 3 centre and 1 for 6 outsides.)
2 for kitchen ( 1 for 3 centre and 1 for 6 outsides.)
You would have quite a number of switching permutations giving varying amount of light in different areas for differing needs. Multiply these options by the number of standard 230v GU10 options you have.
Low energy
minimum of install fuss, no need for transformers.
Pay back of cost of lamps versus energy use starts immeadiately.
Flexibility later on reduces the design headache you have now.
Like Sergei says.....
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Aarrgghh sorry
Slip of the tongue, honest. I have slapped my wrist and promise that next time somebody refers to a domestic pressure washer as 'high' pressure in my vicinity, I will let them off.Thanks for all of the constructive comments everyone - its really appreciated.
The Mrs is shying away from the 18 lights idea and want to go and look at centrally-mounted light ideas. I am still in favour of the downlights as I prefer the light it offers.
The lighting plan that ColJack devised whereby we space a row of three lights 500mm from the kitchen wall and have 6 rows spaces 750mm apart fits perfectly inbetween our joists. I have measured up and drawn diagrams, to also calulate the plasterboard we need / noggin location for when the ceiling goes back up.
Where is the best place to get LED bulbs from? TLC don't seem to sell many.
Also, is it possible to buy white fire rated downlights without the bulbs? TLC's seem to come with 50w bulbs in them.
Also, when i've found energy saving fire rated downlights, they all seem to have 50w (equivalent) bulbs in them too. Is there anywhere that sells the fire rated casings big enough for the larger CFL bulbs (I assume they're larger) without stronger bulbs in them?
And finally, if we were to go for 50w mains powered downlights in fire rated casings, what would the optimal placement for them be? How many would you go for? (Kitchen and diner is 5m x 3.5m with the kitchen being 2.5 x 3.5m:
---------------
|.................|
|.................|
|.................|
|OOO........F|
|.............. O|
|OWSOCOO|
----------------
| / - = Wall
O = kitchen units
W / S / F / C = Washer, Sink, Fridge Freezer / Cooker
The Mrs is shying away from the 18 lights idea and want to go and look at centrally-mounted light ideas. I am still in favour of the downlights as I prefer the light it offers.
The lighting plan that ColJack devised whereby we space a row of three lights 500mm from the kitchen wall and have 6 rows spaces 750mm apart fits perfectly inbetween our joists. I have measured up and drawn diagrams, to also calulate the plasterboard we need / noggin location for when the ceiling goes back up.
Where is the best place to get LED bulbs from? TLC don't seem to sell many.
Also, is it possible to buy white fire rated downlights without the bulbs? TLC's seem to come with 50w bulbs in them.
Also, when i've found energy saving fire rated downlights, they all seem to have 50w (equivalent) bulbs in them too. Is there anywhere that sells the fire rated casings big enough for the larger CFL bulbs (I assume they're larger) without stronger bulbs in them?
And finally, if we were to go for 50w mains powered downlights in fire rated casings, what would the optimal placement for them be? How many would you go for? (Kitchen and diner is 5m x 3.5m with the kitchen being 2.5 x 3.5m:
---------------
|.................|
|.................|
|.................|
|OOO........F|
|.............. O|
|OWSOCOO|
----------------
| / - = Wall
O = kitchen units
W / S / F / C = Washer, Sink, Fridge Freezer / Cooker
Hi Mav,
This is getting quite detailed and is becoming inceasingly difficult to adequately explain in text something which should be quite easy as a conversation, no offence.
At some point in the proceedings, you were looking to pay for 18 un-necessary transformers at £3.50 ea. You are now struggling to find a supplier of D/L's without lamps, which are only about a £1 ea anyway.
Might i humbly suggest that you just bite the bullet and get what you need, you'll find it a weight off your shoulders when you just push forward and do it, rather than worrying more and more about less and less important issues. Your worrying will turn to inertia and the job might stall.
TLC has good prices, or look direct to a lamp manufacturers web site for the product you want, then find your local distributor. Job Done!!!
Don't suppose you are north Leicestershire? I would be happy to call if you were and have a chat. Answers will be forthcoming!
This is getting quite detailed and is becoming inceasingly difficult to adequately explain in text something which should be quite easy as a conversation, no offence.
At some point in the proceedings, you were looking to pay for 18 un-necessary transformers at £3.50 ea. You are now struggling to find a supplier of D/L's without lamps, which are only about a £1 ea anyway.
Might i humbly suggest that you just bite the bullet and get what you need, you'll find it a weight off your shoulders when you just push forward and do it, rather than worrying more and more about less and less important issues. Your worrying will turn to inertia and the job might stall.
TLC has good prices, or look direct to a lamp manufacturers web site for the product you want, then find your local distributor. Job Done!!!
Don't suppose you are north Leicestershire? I would be happy to call if you were and have a chat. Answers will be forthcoming!
The free-with-the-fittings bulbs are normally chinese tat that lasts you the first day, or two if you're lucky. They belong in the bin. Having said that, the white fire rated downlights I bought from TLC came with osrams! Either way, nobody is forcing you to use them.
I'd stick with the 18 layout even if you're starting with 50w bulbs. If you really find the setup too bright (by all accounts above, you won't!) you can bear this in mind and fit lower equivalent-watt LEDs later. That'll be cheaper too, but I think you'll want the higher powered LEDs anyway.
Can't advise you on alternative suppliers - if I analyse my electrical shopping behaviour during my renovation, it's as if I'm aware only of the existence of TLC.
I'd stick with the 18 layout even if you're starting with 50w bulbs. If you really find the setup too bright (by all accounts above, you won't!) you can bear this in mind and fit lower equivalent-watt LEDs later. That'll be cheaper too, but I think you'll want the higher powered LEDs anyway.
Can't advise you on alternative suppliers - if I analyse my electrical shopping behaviour during my renovation, it's as if I'm aware only of the existence of TLC
.Thanks everyone. I'm in west Leicestershire about 10 mins drive from M1 J22. Part of my diliberations is me being stuck at work planning the DIY for the weekend, and what I'm going to do about the lights.
I like the idea of getting the mains powered downlights (TLC) and wiring them up to see what they look like (although I think 900w of power is a little too much!) and then get some 3w Warm White LED bulbs for them (seem some for £12.99 ea.).
18 acoustic rated downlights and 18 LED bulbs will come to approx £300, however if go by TLCs claims that an LED saves £12.00 a year (on 8 hours a day) then 18 of these will save me £216 in electricity. (£54 a year on for 2 hours a day). i.e. they will pay for themselves eventually, and keep the noise from upstairs down.
At the risk of prolonging this thread further, the LED bulbs I have seem have a spread of around 100 degrees, so I then looked at more powerful LEDs, but only 12 of them. These fit between the joists, hang over the vital areas of the kitchen and costs less than 18.
Getting there slowly. Just don't want to drill 18 holes in the ceiling then change my mind or see a dim / blinding room.
I like the idea of getting the mains powered downlights (TLC) and wiring them up to see what they look like (although I think 900w of power is a little too much!) and then get some 3w Warm White LED bulbs for them (seem some for £12.99 ea.).
18 acoustic rated downlights and 18 LED bulbs will come to approx £300, however if go by TLCs claims that an LED saves £12.00 a year (on 8 hours a day) then 18 of these will save me £216 in electricity. (£54 a year on for 2 hours a day). i.e. they will pay for themselves eventually, and keep the noise from upstairs down.
At the risk of prolonging this thread further, the LED bulbs I have seem have a spread of around 100 degrees, so I then looked at more powerful LEDs, but only 12 of them. These fit between the joists, hang over the vital areas of the kitchen and costs less than 18.
Getting there slowly. Just don't want to drill 18 holes in the ceiling then change my mind or see a dim / blinding room.
If I were you I'd wait for the Mrs' final decision. In writing!
Yep 900W is rediculous, but that's what happens when you want to light a big room with recessed downlights. Imagine the good old hanging 100W bulb that perfectly illuminates a room... stick 12" of black drainpipe over it and seal the top... notice how you're still burning 100W, but your room is now pitch black save for a bright pool of light on the floor. Congratulations - you have created a recessed downlight
Hi Mav,
I'm probably half hour from you on a good day.
I can supply what you want at a better price.
check your profile comments.
Mikhail
I'm probably half hour from you on a good day.
I can supply what you want at a better price.
check your profile comments.
Mikhail
Just doing a bit of trig and see that a bulb with 38 degree spread on a ceiling 2.4m high will cover a diameter of 1.8m on the floor and 1m wide on at worktop level (900mm).
18 bulbs (3x6) gives a lot of overlap of direct light at both levels.
Reducing this to 12 bulbs (3x4) shows a little overlap on the floor, and the beams just touching at worktop level.
18 LED bulbs in fire rated casings from TLC comes out at £300.
If I use LEDs do I need fire rated casings with acoustic insulation near them? I am specifying them to keep the acoustic seal between the kitchen below the bathroom above (see page 2).
18 bulbs (3x6) gives a lot of overlap of direct light at both levels.
Reducing this to 12 bulbs (3x4) shows a little overlap on the floor, and the beams just touching at worktop level.
18 LED bulbs in fire rated casings from TLC comes out at £300.
If I use LEDs do I need fire rated casings with acoustic insulation near them? I am specifying them to keep the acoustic seal between the kitchen below the bathroom above (see page 2).
I'm now well briefed on Part P and the need for EICs for the work in the kitchen, which is 3m from the sink, and outside lighting.
After looking at the kitchen / dining room we have, the lights in the dining area are over 3m from the kitchen sink. Does this mean that to fit the lights in this area is not notifiable? The switch for the lights is existing as it currently is working the existing dining room light.
If this is not notifiable we could save a few pennies and just get an electrician to sort out the 9 lights in the kitchen area and the planned outside lights. We'd be looking to get this done with a new CU while we're at it, so everything is covered by trip switches etc.
Sound ok?
After looking at the kitchen / dining room we have, the lights in the dining area are over 3m from the kitchen sink. Does this mean that to fit the lights in this area is not notifiable? The switch for the lights is existing as it currently is working the existing dining room light.
If this is not notifiable we could save a few pennies and just get an electrician to sort out the 9 lights in the kitchen area and the planned outside lights. We'd be looking to get this done with a new CU while we're at it, so everything is covered by trip switches etc.
Sound ok?
It's far too much.
As Liam hints, that's the equivalent of 9 100W pendants. You worry that your 900W would be blinding - it might or it might not, but in the space you describe 9 x 100W pendants would definitely be.
Even more overpowering would be 900W of fluorescent tubes. Imagine looking up at 25 x 4' fluorescent tubes in that space. Blinding? You'd need welding goggles.
Not that either of these are the only alternatives, or even sensible ones, but they hopefully will drive home to you how utterly useless 50mm recessed lights are at actually lighting a room.
Your trig analysis shows why - basically you're planning to light a room with a bunch of torches. No matter how bright they are they are still torches.
"a lot of overlap of direct light at both levels" - that means patchy, uneven lighting. Even if nothing is in darkness you'll still be experiencing darker/lighter patches.
"a little overlap on the floor" means significantly different darker/lighter patches.
"just touching at worktop level" means areas of worktop with no direct light at all.
Did you assume, BTW, that each circle of light would be uniform? If so, it'll be even worse than your trigonometric analysis shows.
If you want recessed lighting then you can have it, but not based around a multitude of 50mm luminaires. They are good for highlighting, and as a semi-decorative-only element in mood lighting, but as an efficient way to illuminate an entire room they are ******g useless. The comparison with 100W GLS pendants confirms this - 9 of those would actually produce less light than your 900W of GU10 halogens, but the room would be much brighter, and much more evenly lit. Fiddling with the lamp type, and using LEDs or CFLs will reduce the terrible electrical inefficiency, but won't do anything about the luminous efficacy (in fact, LEDs will make it even worse).
Give it up, and go for a different design of luminaires altogether.
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