Kitchen electrics

[JayW]

Hi Guys

I understand that current regulation state that kitchen work is no longer notifiable unless installing new circuits.

I am in the process of ripping out kitchen ready for a re-fit and about to undertake 1st fix electrics (not me personally, I will be using a friend who is a registered electrician but who cannot self-certify)

My questions are -

1. I will be getting a GAS cooker (Rangemaster) so would this need its own circuit or is it normally just electric / duel fuel cookers that require their own circuit now? If so then putting in a new circuit to cooker (literally 1 meter from CU) would be notifiable?

2. My kitchen currently has a total of 2 double sockets. I plan on adding more double sockets above worktops and one below for dishwasher. (Washing machine and fridge are in separate room) Would it easier to just make a new circuit for kitchen as CU is actually in kitchen or shall I try and extend the current ring main (on CU it is downstairs sockets) could this cope with say 5 extra sockets in the kitchen)

Here are some photos to explain is further

This photo shows CU and 1 of the 2 double sockets above counter. You can see another socket in dining room which I could extend off through wall as cabinets will be an L shape around this corner in kitchen

This next photo shows another corner in the kitchen where the are no sockets, I wish to add 2 doubles here somehow?

The other corner which is directly diagonal from CU is where the second double is presently.

Here is a very rubbish plan -

Green - Existing socket
Blue - New
Yellow - Will be a FCU for dishwasher

The one green over by CU will also be where the cooker will be going so dependant on if it needs its own circuit then I could change this socket to a FCU and run a plug outlet below counter behind cooker? Also need to think about cooker hood...

The current single cooker I have now is plugged in to the double and as I say above the cooker will be going to the other side of room, gas line already there as meter is under CU and a line runs under cabinets up to boiler.

Any ideas?

New circuit or make use of what's there?
Notifiable work?

Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

friend who is a registered electrician but who cannot self-certify)

Can't be one without the other.

 

[JayW]

Ok well maybe registered was wrong word.

Qualified?

He works for a company which maintains a large number of well known pubs and restaurants doing maintenance and new installs.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A common situation - yes, he could easily be qualified, and it's his employer who is registered. Or maybe not even that, if they don't do domestic work.

As for your kitchen refurb - it's clearly more than a news-doors-and-worktops refresh, so I would advise :

1. Ring finals in kitchens can be problematic, as it's easy to end up with a number of high-current appliances close together - radials are often better.
2. It's hard to have too many sockets in a kitchen.
3. Lighting (e.g. under-cupboard, plinth etc) which uses power supplies like ELV transformers or LED drivers can be a pain to add to lighting circuits without proper planning, especially if wall-wart supplies are used.
4. You may be getting a gas cooker now, but things might change - seems foolish not to make provision for a cooker circuit.
   
5. Do not compromise on the electrical design in order to avoid notification.

 

[JayW]

I have got a new reel of cable to use

Forgive me for being dumb but is this 1.5 or 2.5mm cable?

This is the CU

I can swap cable if need be but is a specific mm cable needed for radial circuit?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have got a new reel of cable to use

For what?

Forgive me for being dumb but is this 1.5 or 2.5mm cable?

2.5mm²

Should you be buying cable when you aren't even sure what size you're getting?

This is the CU

{Photo of a CU with no RCD(s) or RCBOs}

You may not, using that CU as it is, have any new sockets, or any new buried cables.

You're going to need more in the way of electrician's services than an unregistered mate pulling cables for you.

I can swap cable if need be but is a specific mm cable needed for radial circuit?

Depends on what load you need it to cope with and what protective device rating you have.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cable+installation+methods+17th+edition
  
  
• [wiki]Electrics%3AMCBtoCable[/wiki]
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.1.htm
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.11.htm
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.3.1.htm
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20070327014113/http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.pdf
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Charts/VoltageDrop.html
  
  
• http://www.batt.co.uk/upload/files/4d5.pdf
  
  The references above which are in italics are out of date. The principles are still valid, and you can absolutely learn valid things from them, but you will need to refer to the latest edition of the Wiring Regulations to get the correct data.

 

[JayW]

The cable was given to me for the job.

I will most probably go for new circuit in kitchen as it will be easier, along with separate circuit for cooker to future proof.

I will consult with mate about what else is needed as haven't discussed in detail yet but the appropriate breaker will be used for new circuits.

I will then get the work signed off and forward certificate to LABC and pay appropriate fees ~£600 for notification and regularsation certificate from our local council.

Thanks for advice all

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I will then get the work signed off and forward certificate to LABC and pay appropriate fees

Wrong order - you have to apply for Building Regulations approval before the work starts.

~£600 for notification and regularsation certificate from our local council.

Dear God - £600?

You could pay for your friend to become registered for less than that.

Are you sure that's not the 2x the normal fee if you don't get advance approval?

 

[JayW]

I will have to double check as this is the reply I got -

Hello James


I can confirm that the electrical work in kitchen is notifiable where the work consists of the installation of a new circuit, or the replacement of a consumer unit. If no new circuit is installed then Building Control does not have to be notified.

For notifiable electrical installation work, one of the following three procedures must be used to certify that the work complies with the requirements set in the Building Regulations:-

a.Self-certification by a registered competent person.

b.Third-party certification by a registered third-party certifier.

c.Certification by a building control body.


I hope this answers your query. If have any more queries please do not hesitate to phone me or e-mail.


And this is the price -

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=6322&p=0

 

[Taylortwocities]

In case you missed the warning in BAS's post.

All new sockets must be protected by an RCD. any new cable buried in walls etc to a depth less than 50mm must be RCD protected.
Your consumer unit does not have RCD protection so your first issue would be to change or upgrade the consumer unit, or consider the use of RCBOs for circuits that are being worked on. All of that work would be notifiable. So your off-hand electrician could not do that.

 

[JayW]

In case you missed the warning in BAS's post.

All new sockets must be protected by an RCD. any new cable buried in walls etc to a depth less than 50mm must be RCD protected.
Your consumer unit does not have RCD protection so your first issue would be to change or upgrade the consumer unit, or consider the use of RCBOs for circuits that are being worked on. All of that work would be notifiable. So your off-hand electrician could not do that.

 

[flameport]

I will then get the work signed off and forward certificate to LABC and pay appropriate fees ~£600 for notification and regularsation certificate from our local council

The whole kitchen could be rewired and notified by an electrician for less than that.
Pointless to even consider any other option.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

{Photo of an RCD}

Is that upstream of the CU? i.e. switch it off and everything is dead?

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=6322&p=0

Still don't know where you got £600 from.

Your friend is a qualified electrician - no additional inspection charge.

 

[AndyPRK]

Well the 2.5mm cable and spare 16a mcb could be used together to power a couple of new sockets at one end of the room.

Not what you would do if u had a blank bit of paper but anyway.

 

[JayW]

Ok so ive had this reply from LABC -

Hi James
If no new circuits are installed then you do not have to submit an application under the Building Regulations. If a new circuit is installed then you have two choices. Either you submit an application to the Local Authority with a fee of £264.00 or you can get a third-party to certify the installation. Third-party must be registered certifier.
Adding a new circuit to just the kitchen is classed as work other than the rewiring of a dwelling.
I hope that I have answered your question. In case of more queries please phone me.


.........................


What I still dont understand though is if I get a part p registered electrician in to do the work who will provide relevant certificates etc would the price I pay him include notification to the LABC or am I expected to pay the £264 for a building notice before work starts? Then pay electrician? Then provide EIC to LABC?

I am just trying to get my head around the legalities of it all and the price.