Kitchen electrics

Somewhat confusing terminology;

a.Self-certification by a registered competent person.

b.Third-party certification by a registered third-party certifier.

c.Certification by a building control body.

a. A registered electrician can what is called 'self certify'; this really should be called 'self notify'.
He can do the work, issue certificates and notify the LA afterwards and state it complies.
Cost will include notification. He does not have to pay LA hundreds.

b. A third party certifier (notifier) may supervise your work and then do paperwork.
Cost will include notification. He does not have to pay LA hundreds.

c. Pay the LA.

In all options you must do it before the work starts.
 
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Ok thanks for the reply.

A) I take it this is the most cost effective way to just hire a registered electrician who will take care of it all, I would have to ensure they notify before work starts.

B) I would look at finding someone who is prepared to supervise and sign off work if me and my electrician friend do the work as my friend although competent cannot self-certify. This again I would have to ensure this 3rd party notifies LA before work starts. I have feeling that some may just say they will check work after completion and sign off, so this is not the correct procedure and don't use people who say this? LA needs notifying first...

C) If I get my friend to do the work (and im confident it will be done correctly) would I just pay the £264 before he starts work and the LA just check it over during first fix and completion? This would be the cheapest option as I wouldn't need to pay for the work then.

Thanks
 
A) I take it this is the most cost effective way to just hire a registered electrician who will take care of it all, I would have to ensure they notify before work starts.
They don't have to do it until finished.

B) I would look at finding someone who is prepared to supervise and sign off work if me and my electrician friend do the work as my friend although competent cannot self-certify. This again I would have to ensure this 3rd party notifies LA before work starts. I have feeling that some may just say they will check work after completion and sign off, so this is not the correct procedure and don't use people who say this? LA needs notifying first…
Again, he does not have to do it until finished but you have to engage him before starting.
Apart from that, you may be right.

C) If I get my friend to do the work (and im confident it will be done correctly) would I just pay the £264 before he starts work and the LA just check it over during first fix and completion?
Yes, but if not to requirements there may be further inspection costs.
 
Call me an old cynic, but I expect with (C) Building Control will just rubber-stamp the electrician's EIC, and pocket £264 for doing virtually BA.
 
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I didn't think there would be an EIC certificate with C as this is the whole point in paying LA who would sub contract someone to inspect and issue EIC...
 
  1. They won't.

  2. If they did you would pay more for it.

  3. Whoever did such an inspection could not issue an EIC for the work anyway.

  4. Why can't your friend issue an EIC? Are you reading anything which we or your LABC tell you?

    screenshot_752.jpg


    I'm beginning to wonder if he actually exists....
 
Maybe im confusing an EIC with actually passing off? I thought only registered electricians could do this hence looking into hiring one or working around it using LA

My friend is a very competent guy who can easily do the job, he just cannot legally give me required documents to say work is done correct to provide to LA.

You will have to forgive me if I sound confusing I really have idea how it all works for a legal perspective.
 
My friend is a very competent guy who can easily do the job, he just cannot legally give me required documents to say work is done correct to provide to LA.
Yes he can (or should be able to if…); anyone can if competent.

Understandably you are confusing filling out the EI Certificate with self-certifying (self-notifying).
 
What about the testing and inspection part?

By that document, he is certifying that he carried out the design, construction, inspection and testing of the work. He is lying if he signed this and you did the work. There are other certs where different people carry out different aspects of the work, but each certifies that the work they did complies with BS7671 (i.e. they have done the work incompliance with The Wiring Regulations - BS7671 - and are competent to do the work).

These are usually used where it is a large job. A senior engineer would carry out the design, maybe a low-life spark will do the cable installation. A Qualifing Supervisor will oversee the installation works and will carry out testing.

At every stage, each person needs to have a level of skill, and knowledge.

In your case. your friend has to be a member of one of the Competent Person Schemes to avoid the cost of notifying.
 
Thanks I will have to ask him if he is a member of such scheme and if he is able to fill out said form.

If not I guess I will be hiring someone who can or paying the LA the notice fee and then the additional inspection charge.

Edit - Ignore above, obviously my friend wont be part of such scheme so I am enquiring with LA again the correct process to follow if I used my friend to do the install.
 
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That sort of thing.


What about the testing and inspection part?
He does that too.

There are two compliances going on here. Building Regulations compliance and Wiring Regulations compliance.

The former is legally required, the latter is not, but in practice it is so much the easiest way to achieve the former that it is de facto required.

There are legal restrictions on who can certify the former, but not on who can certify the latter. But again, in practice, a person would need electrical qualifications for people, especially regulatory bodies etc, to be prepared to accept that an EIC signed by them was valid. Legally your Aunt Bessie could sign an EIC, but it's unlikely that anybody would believe that she knew how to exercise reasonable skill and care etc, and unlikely that her assertion that to the best of her knowledge and belief she had complied with the Wiring Regulations would be given any credence.

The Building Regulations (Part P) applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

Some electrical work is notifiable, i.e. you have to tell the council about it. Possibly they have to assure themselves that it complies with the Building Regulations, and once they do they issue a completion certificate certifying that it complies.

There are different ways to go about this.

  1. You use a registered electrician. He has had his qualifications and skills verified by what's called a Competent Person Scheme operator such as NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT etc, and is allowed to self-certify compliance with the Building Regs. Through his scheme he tells the council about the work once it's finished (within 30 days), and he pays a nominal fee for that. The scheme organiser tells the council and issues the Building Regs completion certificate to you.

  2. You, or someone else who is unqualified, does the work, and you engage the services of a registered Third Party Certifier. This really is just like the way it's always been an option to use an independent Building Inspector instead of a council BCO when doing "building" work. The TPC has had his skills etc assessed, and he is trusted. When the work is done he issues the Building Regs completion certificate to you and notifies the council. There are not many TPCs around, and IHNI what sort of charges they make. Presumably they'd have to be cheaper than the council or they'd not get any work, which is probably why not many electricians who could do it have bothered to sign up.

  3. You, or someone else who is unqualified, does the work. Then you have to notify the council in advance, i.e. you basically tell them what you plan to do, and how you plan to ensure it complies with the Building Regulations, they say "OK - that's fine", you then do the work, they inspect it at various times, and if they are happy that you did what you promised, and did comply, they issue the completion certificate. Because your council, like most, does not have in-house electrical expertise, they have to sub-contract an electrician, hence the additional fee. You might wonder just what they have done to justify their initial fee - I couldn't possibly speculate.

    For small jobs this will be by far and away the most expensive way to do it.

  4. You have the work done by a qualified electrician. He is qualified, and is perfectly able to certify compliance with the Wiring Regulations, and perfectly able to satisfy the council that he is so able. Notification in advance is still needed, and paying the council's fee still happens, but no additional inspection fees are levied because the council know that the work is being done by a qualified electrician. When it's done you send them a copy of his EIC, they then take that as proof of compliance with the Building Regulations, and they issue the completion certificate. In theory they ought to come and inspect the non-electrical aspects of the work, i.e. has he not turned joists into swiss cheese to run cables through, has he installed energy efficient lighting, has he not removed thermal insulation etc, but I believe that the level of diligence varies from council to council. You might wonder just what they have done to justify their initial fee - I couldn't possibly speculate.

    If you've got a friend who will do the work for free, then this will be the cheapest option.

    Please note though that you will be asking your friend to sign this declaration:

    I being the person responsible for the design, construction, inspection & testing of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signature below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the design, construction, inspection & testing hereby CERTIFY that the said work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2008, amended to 2015 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows:

    Do not ask him to do that without agreeing with him upfront everything you do. Don't present him with decisions you have made, or a bunch of anonymous strangers on an Internet forum have made, and expect him to say that he made them.
 
Maybe something in the rules has been changed since I left Britain, but last I heard they were not allowed to make an additional charge for electrical work where a building application was already being made for the whole project, and those (many) local authorities which were trying to do so had been told in no uncertain terms to desist immediately.
 
New reply - Anyone heard of sending qualifications over before? Which specific ones would they be looking for?



Hello James
Thank you for the e-mail.
With regards to option 1 there is no set procedure. Before you carry out the works send your electrical installers qualifications to the Council. If we (Council) think that his qualifications are suitable to carry out installation and testing you will be charged administration of £50.00. When the work is finished he will notify the Council and the Council will a completion certificate. If we (Council) decide he is not suitably qualified you will have to pay full amount of £264.00 when you submit your application. The application should be submitted before any work is commenced preferably few days (or weeks). The Council will get a qualified electrician to inspect first fix and at completion. If everything is ok we will issue a completion certificate.
With option 2 third –party should notify their scheme provider and issue a certificate to you. The scheme provide will notify the Local authority.

Wolverhampton City Council


Hi
Thanks for the reply I appreciate your support

I just want to go over a few things to make it clear.

I will definitely be installing two new circuits in the kitchen which is notifiable, I understand this but please see below.

1. If I have the work done by a friend who is a competent electrician although they cannot self-certify and they are not a member of a Competent Person Scheme. Would I then need to pay the LA a building notice prior to work starting? then pay an additional inspection charge as my electrician wouldn’t be able to provide certificate? Can you confirm the order of steps for this as I would like to start work soon so if I have to put a notice in then I can look at doing this.
2. If I had the work done by the same person as above but instead of paying LA the notice fee I get a 3rd party in to supervise and verify the work, would they then notify you themselves or would I require documentation from them to provide to you?

I just need to know the correct steps to follow before work starts.

Forgive me for sounding so vague but this is very new to me and want to cover myself for the future if I come to sell my house.

Many Thanks
 

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