Kitchen sockets circuit

[JohnW2]

Hi folks. I'm currently involved with the refurbishment of a fairly large 3-story terraced late Victorian house.

It was re-wired (well, really 'wired', since the only 'electrical installation' previously there related to a few lights!) a bit over 20 years ago (pre 'Part P'), and generally seems to have been done pretty well, and with a surprisingly generous number of socket outlets in every room. Apart from a few minor matters of detail, all it probably needs ('in due course') is an upgrade to the CU.

There are just three sockets circuits (all 32A ring finals), one for each floor. That's clearly enough for the upper two floors. On the ground floor, just the one 32A circuit serves both the kitchen (& 'utility area') and the other two modest-sized 'reception' rooms on that floor. There is also a cooker circuit to the kitchen.

If I were designing the installation from scratch, I would undoubtedly have a 32A (radial or ring) sockets circuit for the 'ground floor' (reception rooms) and another similar for 'the kitchen', so I'm wondering whether I should be considering the addition of an extra circuit.

What are people's thoughts. I'm tempted to consider the one circuit as essentially just being a kitchen/utility circuit, with the other two rooms 'also supplied' by it since the only appreciable non-kitchen loads I image would be likely would be ('occasional') vacuum cleaner/carpet cleaner etc. and perhaps occasions electric heaters (fan heater or whatever), or maybe, occasionally, garden 'power tools'.

To some extent I can answer my own question, in that it would obvious, in some senses, be 'better, to have two circuits, but I wonder whether it's really necessary? What do folk think?

Kind Regards, John

 

[blup]

Nice to see ring mains making a comeback, go for the flexibility of two extra rings

 

[ericmark]

I have looked at my utility room, with washing machine and tumble drier, and wondered if needed a dedicated ring final, but the tumble drier only draws 600 watt, (heat pump type) so not really needed.

I also looked at freezers and fridges, do I want them on a common RCD/RCBO with everything else? But now since on an UPS system so solar panels and battery can keep the freezers running, and only way to get the supply was outside the house, so SWA cable, they now have RCD sockets, so they are not on same RCD/RCBO as rest of house or kitchen.

My house is split side to side not up/down, so the ring finals both have reasonably even load, but when I look at the solar software, I see about the only time I exceed 5 kW (max the inverter can provide) is when using the shower, so no real need for extra circuits, don't ever get any where near 5 kW under normal use.

 

[SUNRAY]

In reality the 2 upper floors probably don't require a 32A ring each (assuming of course they are not living rooms/kitchens etc with major high power kit)

I automatically aim for a ring to cover kitchen and utility room however I'll also consider the amount of high power stuff that some kitchens now seem to be filled with that gets plugged in rather than dedicated circuits.
One of my nephews purchased their 5 bed 'forever house' and gutted what was lounge, diner & utility to make one big room (I'll guess 40x16 ft - 6x5m) to make lounge, dine, cook space and make the old kitchen into utility - rings for: upstairs, utility, lounge-hall-office, island, kitchen sockets on 2 walls, kitchen sockets on wall with fridge, freezer, grill, microwave plus 2 cooker circuits for island and 2 ovens between f&f.
I think OTT but his electrician is his best friend of 30ish years & didn't charge. Only CU I've seen with 9 32A (garage and EV) and 4 6A lighting ELCB's

EDIT: thinking further about OP property; how is it laid out? That may have a bearing.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

On the ground floor, just the one 32A circuit serves both the kitchen (& 'utility area') and the other two modest-sized 'reception' rooms on that floor. There is also a cooker circuit to the kitchen.

That is what we have here, and it has been fine for decades, until this year when I decided to swap the none RCD board, for a split load RCD board. So I added one extra none RCD circuit, for the kitchen fridge/freezer, plus freezer. We have no substantial loads, on the circuit, just m/waves, washer, kettle etc..

I have a 32amp ring for the upstairs, 16amp for the loft workshop/or immersion heater, 16amp for garage/workshop/summerhouse/outdoor sockets. 6amp for boiler. 6 amp for stair lift. 6amp for fire alarm.

 

[RandomGrinch]

Are you considering any solar panels as part of the refurb?
If so, it may change the way appliances are used, I.e. running all the appliances at certain times of the day, may better suit a separate circuit?

 

[JohnW2]

Are you considering any solar panels as part of the refurb?

Definitely not

Unless there are some dramatic and unexpected changes, I'll never be living in this house or paying the energy bills, and it would be a very significant gamble to assume that I'll still be around when the 'break-even' point in relation to the capital outlay on a solar installation is reached!

 

[ebee]

In the real world then probably good enough as is but in an ideal world a second circuit or three has it`s merits./
If you were to keep the property yourself for a long while then I would err towards new circuit benefits.
Whether RCBOs or RCDs I`d allow for keeping a few circuits on their own RCBO circuit anyway, quite independent from other circuits.
Freezer?fridge etc one circuit per appliance - the only fail to ruin a whole fridge or freezer full would be something affecting only that circuit (besides a total power cut).
Heating controls - for instance a boiler to greatly reduce risk of pipes freezing in very cold temperatures occurring and therefore your risk of burst pipes.
I could go on and on about renewables and UPS but you get the gist of what I`m saying.
Horses for courses John.

To be honest though - Have have been a front ender for many years now and real life problems very very rare.

Earlier this year I had a water escape in the kitchen ceiling which caused an RCD trip to the whole lot about a day and a half before my return, I was aware of the loss of power immediately then 24 hours later my Intruder Alarm went into full alarm for 20 mins and I was aware of immediately, my next door neighbour sent me a message too.

I was only a couple of hundred miles away by car so I did not change plans but had I been abroad with several days left before planned return then it might have been a problem.

Benefits versus costs equation as in all things

 

[JohnW2]

In reality the 2 upper floors probably don't require a 32A ring each (assuming of course they are not living rooms/kitchens etc with major high power kit)

They don't ... and I have now discovered that they haven't

I can more-or-less 'cancel' my OP. Never trust the labels on a CU . It seems that the guy who did the (re-)wiring was more sensible than I had thought, other than being incompetent with his labelling!

I obviously hadn't actually checked before, but I was now moved to do so, and have discovered that one of the sockets circuits does both middle and upper floors (all bedrooms/bathrooms, so essentially fine), one does just the kitchen/utility and the third one the rest of the ground floor - in other words, probably exactly what I would have done if designing myself.

I therefore think that the present arrangement is fine, and am sorry for having wasted people's time with a non-question

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

Your post #7 alters my post a bit

 

[ebee]

Oh ditto with your post #9 too

 

[JohnW2]

In the real world then probably good enough as is but in an ideal world a second circuit or three has it`s merits./
If you were to keep the property yourself for a long while then I would err towards new circuit benefits.

All agreed. However, as I've just written, I think the whole question has suddenly become moot, thanks to some CU labelling that was lying

Freezer?fridge etc one circuit per appliance - the only fail to ruin a whole fridge or freezer full would be something affecting only that circuit (besides a total power cut).

As I've said before, I'm not real fan of freezers etc. being on dedicated circuits, since awareness of a loss of power on those circuits is then often much delayed. Mind you, as I also always say, I've always considered 'over-temp alarms' to be the most important things, since the two or three occasions ion which I've nearly lost a freezer full of food were due to failure of the freezer, not the the power supply toit.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Oh ditto with your post #9 too

Very much so!

 

[JohnW2]

EDIT: thinking further about OP property; how is it laid out? That may have a bearing.

It's now pretty irrelevant, but I wonder what you had in mind here? On the face of it, the 'layout' of a property would not affect the electrical loads, would it?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

As I've said before, I'm not real fan of freezers etc. being on dedicated circuits, since awareness of a loss of power on those circuits is then often much delayed. Mind you, as I also always say, I've always considered 'over-temp alarms' to be the most important things, since the two or three occasions ion which I've nearly lost a freezer full of food were due to failure of the freezer, not the the power supply toit.

I have a cheap Chinese battery alarm/display on our utility-room freezer, it triggers when ever the temperature rises, or the door is kept open too long. That covers for power loss, or other failure, and last year warned us the old freezer had failed.

The kitchen fridge/freezer, is in more regular use, so we would notice that one rising in temperature, quite quickly.