LED outdoor security floodlights high failure rate

Indeed so. As you are aware, for my sins I live in a very large house, with an awful lot o'lf lights - I think that last time I attempted a rough count, there was a total of something like 120 bulbs/lamps/tubes (many 'multi-bulb fittings'), albeit a lot of them are very little used these days.

Only about 50 to 60 here, at a rough count, a mix of LED lamps, CFL's and florescent tubes, even a couple of HP mercury vapours. With one LED decorative outdoor lantern, one Lidl flat panel LED, built in PIR - which looks rather like a tablet. I've not had a lamp fail for decades, apart from the lantern type one. It went through a couple of LED lamps, which I assumed was due to being tightly enclosed and due to heat build-up. Adding some ventilation, seems to have sorted that.

Likewise, I have kept all the old tungsten lamps, CFL's, spare florescent lamps and starters - just-in-case.
 
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Thanks for your replies. Seems a few of us have found that LED security lights fail unexpectedly early and very few examples (in this thread as yet) of outdoor LED security lamps lasting anything like 15000 hours.


Haven't seen any LED security lights with a 5 year warranty though I'm picking up two 10W ones on Friday that have three year warranties and only coast £9 each.




True, but it certainly doesn't prove the manufacturers' lifespan figures either.

Personally, I'd be keen to see the LED manufacturers' documented justification for their average service life claims (I didn't realise LED lifespan was expressed as a median average, I assumed it was mean). Before I posted this thread, I asked friends and colleagues their experiences with LED security lighting which turned out to be similar to my own.

It may well be that, under perfect usage and environmental conditions, 50%+ of the actual LEDs do last for 15000 hours (or whatever lifetime figure is advertised) but real liife anecdotal evidence (albeit limited) suggests this isn't the case at the moment. A larger survey is needed!

Other factors may shorten the life of the LED, such as water ingress, large temperature variations (overheating), electrical supply spikes and the number of on/off switchings. I think it's also possible that the LED driver fails before the LEDs themselves. Most of my current LED security lights are (almost) cast sealed with no access to the electronics within, so whether it's the driver or the actual LEDs that fail, there's no way to effect a repair. The lamps end up being "recycled". Yeh, right - I'm cynical enough about materials recycling to hazard a guess that these new sealed LED lamps won't be recycled as it's too resource-intensive so may well end up in landfill. I'd really like to be proven wrong on this because such wastage would be an environmental crime.

To end on a positive note...
My first experience of LED lamps came in the early days of mains LED lighting when I purchased two 2W corn-style lamps direct from China. Fitted them to my garage as external bulkhead lights and they both lasted 10+ years. The lamps were controlled by a photocell, not a PIR, and, averaged over a year, were lit for around 12 hours per day. I worked out that the service life of each exceeded 50,000 hours - so it can be done.
 

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True, but it certainly doesn't prove the manufacturers' lifespan figures either.
Indeed it doesn't. However, a lot of people seem to think that if they see a lot of fairly early failures, that means that a claim of, say, 10,000 or 15,000 hours 'average' lifespan "simply cannot be true" - but I've explained that such is not correct.
Personally, I'd be keen to see the LED manufacturers' documented justification for their average service life claims (I didn't realise LED lifespan was expressed as a median average, I assumed it was mean).
Medians are almost universally quoted in relation to life expectancy figures, in all fields. Means are really no better, in some senses worse, since just a small number of products with very long lives can make the claimed 'average' (mean) very over-optimistic. Medians are also more useful to large-scale users who want to know how many replacements to hold in stock.

Another problem, of course, is that claimed lifespans are necessarily only estimates, based on extrapolation and/or 'accelerated testing' - since if one wanted to 'properly test' lifespan of a new product with an expected life of, say, 15,000 hours, one would have to have to test a large batch for at least 15,000 hours (not far short of 2 years) before marketing the product (with a 'lifespan claim) - and the speed of advance of technology is such that the product might almost be ';obsolete' by then :)

It may well be that, under perfect usage and environmental conditions, 50%+ of the actual LEDs do last for 15000 hours (or whatever lifetime figure is advertised) but real life anecdotal evidence (albeit limited) suggests this isn't the case at the moment. A larger survey is needed!
I'm inclined to agree but, as I've implied, it's not simple. Having said that, as I've also said, my personal experiences of cheap indoor LEDs is that they seem to usually ask for a pretty long time - certainly 'years' in some cases.
Other factors may shorten the life of the LED, such as water ingress, large temperature variations (overheating), electrical supply spikes and the number of on/off switchings.
All true, But most of those factors are pretty 'intangible' and therefore difficult to take into account - either in tresting or use.
I think it's also possible that the LED driver fails before the LEDs themselves.
Very much so. In the cheapest ones, where 'the driver' just consists of a bridge rectifier and a couple of expereince, in terms of the dead ones I've dissected, it is nearly always one of the capacitors which fails. The LED elements might reduce in brighteness after long use, but generally don't themselves 'fail'.
To end on a positive note... My first experience of LED lamps came in the early days of mains LED lighting when I purchased two 2W corn-style lamps direct from China. Fitted them to my garage as external bulkhead lights and they both lasted 10+ years. The lamps were controlled by a photocell, not a PIR, and, averaged over a year, were lit for around 12 hours per day. I worked out that the service life of each exceeded 50,000 hours - so it can be done.
Yes, they can do well, even outdoors. I have a couple of PAR38 LEDs (I think probably 15W) in my garden which are on every day from dusk until about 11pm (combination of photocell and timeswitch). I'm not sure that I have ever had to replace either but, if I did, it was many years ago!

Kind Regards, John
 
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Only about 50 to 60 here, at a rough count, a mix of LED lamps, CFL's and florescent tubes, even a couple of HP mercury vapours.
As I said, it soon adds up. If yours is a fairly 'average size' house, it probably makes my 120 for 3-storeys+very large cellar+garden relatively modest :)
... I've not had a lamp fail for decades, apart from the lantern type one.
I can't go quite that far, but failures are certainly rare - a breath of fresh air compared with the 'at least one every week' in the days of incandescents.
Likewise, I have kept all the old tungsten lamps, CFL's, spare florescent lamps and starters - just-in-case.
I suspect that many of us do - but exactly what the "just in case" actually refers to, I'm not sure that many of us could answer :)

Kind Regards, John
 
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As I said, it soon adds up. If yours is a fairly 'average size' house, it probably makes my 120 for 3-storeys+very large cellar+garden relatively modest :)

Just a mid sized semi, but with lots of garden, huts, garage and a couple of workshops, plus outside lighting.
 
Just a mid sized semi, but with lots of garden, huts, garage and a couple of workshops, plus outside lighting.
That's what I suspected - so, as I said, I think it makes my ~120 lamps/bulbs fairly 'modest'!

If I recall correctly my house has a floor area (including 'full-size cellar', which has lots of lights) of around 750 m² (around 8,000 ft²) - which I think is approaching 8 times the floor area of an average semi !

Kind Regards, John
 
I found the 100 watt tungsten bulb can't really be replace it a single CFL or LED bulb, the only option is a chandelier in my case with 8 x E14 bulbs. So the total bulbs in the home increases, but as to outside lights, the main problem seems to be lack of a drain hole, it only needs to be 1/16" but that is enough to stop water build up.

The PIR tended to be under the lamp, so any water ingress builds up on the PIR first, drilling the hole without hitting a vital component is I admit hard, however it does seem to cure the problem.
 
In my opinion most led bulbs / lights / luminaries are designed to run 'hot' - they are made with too few LEDs that are then run with too high current levels to maximise the lm or W value on the box.

Additionally the controlling electronics use cheap capacitors that fail far too early especially when switched on and off every day in real home world applications.

This is done to being the price down to try and sell ore products in a cost sensitive market in a 'me too' price competitive industry.

Sorry but I have no recommendations on what to purchase, but I have occasionally intentionally reduced the current in variable led current drivers and modified the resistors in led voltage drivers to extend lifetime.

Sfk
 
I found the 100 watt tungsten bulb can't really be replace it a single CFL or LED bulb
I have to say that I've replaced many 100W incandescents with (usually 12W) LEDs, with perfectly satisfactory results.
, the only option is a chandelier in my case with 8 x E14 bulbs.
As I've said, I have a fair few 3-bulb and 5-bulb 'chandelier-like' fittings, but they now only have 2W or 3W LEDs (previously probably 25W incandescents) - so a total of only 6W-15W of LED and, again, perfectly satisfactory.

Kind Regards, John
 
In my opinion most led bulbs / lights / luminaries are designed to run 'hot' - they are made with too few LEDs that are then run with too high current levels to maximise the lm or W value on the box.
That's probably true.
Additionally the controlling electronics use cheap capacitors that fail far too early especially when switched on and off every day in real home world applications.
Indeed, as I've said, nearly every time I've undertaken an 'autopsy' on a cheap LED bulb/lamp, it appears to be a capacitor that has failed - often with the LED elements themselves still functional.
Sorry but I have no recommendations on what to purchase, but I have occasionally intentionally reduced the current in variable led current drivers and modified the resistors in led voltage drivers to extend lifetime.
As I've said, I've not infrequently included a capacitor in the supply, but primarily to reduce brightness, even though I imagine that it probably also increases lifespan. As for 'recommendations', for what it's worth my personal experience is that 'the cheapest I can find' generally last at least as long as 'very expensive, reputable brand' ones.

Kind Regards, John
 
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In general the problem with LED is they are directional, but for outside lights that can be an advantage.

Using a capacitor as a driver is common for bulbs, but for security lights common to find a pulse width modulated controller, as in the main they are a higher output.

The PWM is normally a chip, and if they last the year likely will last 10 years, but not if they get wet.
 
In general the problem with LED is they are directional, but for outside lights that can be an advantage.
I suppose it depends on the situation, but being somewhat directional is not necessarily a problem indoors, either, particularly if the LED is in some sort of 'fitting', rather than just dangling from the ceiling (in which case 'upwards light' (of which there is much more with, say, a GLS incandescent) bounces off the ceiling.
Using a capacitor as a driver is common for bulbs, but for security lights common to find a pulse width modulated controller, as in the main they are a higher output.
Assuming you're talking about 'integrated' PIR+LED, I've always assumed that since the PIR electronics requires a low DC voltage, it will feed the PIR directly with that - but possibly, as you imply, using PWM as part of the (average) current limitation - but at the price of very high pulse currents, which will presumably reduce lifespan.
The PWM is normally a chip, and if they last the year likely will last 10 years, but not if they get wet.
Getting wet should not worry a chip, but if the associated circuitry gets wet, that might kill the chip (if, for example, it results in 'the wrong voltage getting to the wrong place' !).

Kind Regards, John
 
How are your LED security floodlights holding up? I'd like to know because mine aren't doing so well. I originally started fitting LED lamps as security lights on the outer walls of my property back in 2014. Originally, all lamps had an associated PIR. I soon learnt that PIR's tended to fail even quicker than the LED lamp itself (including PIRs not in any direct sunlight) so I replaced failed PIR's and LED lamps with separate PIR's and LED lamps. At least now it's an easier task to replace either a PIR or an LED lamp when they inevitably fail.
So, you learned the "First Lesson" that it is unwise to use "combined" PIRs and LED "flood lights"

Continuing on from that - in my experience - it is best to have "one or more" PIRs controlling "one or more" screw-in E27 par38 led bulbs.
(e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/par38-led-bulbs/s?k=par38+led+bulbs)

The "Bulbs" are
relatively cheap,
easily replaced and
seem to last for quite a long time - if made by a reputable manufacturer (e. g. Philips or Osram)
 
..... "one or more" screw-in E27 par38 led bulbs. The "Bulbs" are relatively cheap, easily replaced and seem to last for quite a long time - if made by a reputable manufacturer (e. g. Philips or Osram)
I'm not so sure about the need for that "if". As I wrote above ....
I have a couple of PAR38 LEDs (I think probably 15W) in my garden which are on every day from dusk until about 11pm (combination of photocell and timeswitch). I'm not sure that I have ever had to replace either but, if I did, it was many years ago!
... and they will be "the cheapest I could find", certainly not "made by a reputable manufacturer" - and I feel sure that my "many years ago" must be at least 10 years, quite possibly appreciably more.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm not so sure about the need for that "if". As I wrote above ....

... and they will be "the cheapest I could find", certainly not "made by a reputable manufacturer" - and I feel sure that my "many years ago" must be at least 10 years, quite possibly appreciably more.

Kind Regards, John
"par38 led bulbs" seem to use "proven" technology, and are sealed within an "envelope".
Other "outdoor" LEDs seem to use devices more "open to the elements".

If you have had success with el-cheapo par 38 LED bulbs - good luck.
I tend to lean on the side of caution when investing in "new technology".
 

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