Lifting whole T&G floor in victorian house

[duotwr]

Hi

I'm trying to work out options on how to get hard flooring in the Dining Room of our victorian terrace. At this point the preference is to sand/stain floorboards - but it's going to be bloody cold without some insulation, and we've only got about 2 foot of space underneath.

So it looks like the only option would be to lift the floor to insulate. From a quick peak under the carpet it appears to be T&G.

There are loads of threads on here about cutting tongues to lift single boards - but just how awful is it going to be to lift a whole floor? Does it get any easier once the first board near the wall is out (assuming all skirting taken off).

What am I letting myself in for?

Keith

 

[Burnerman]

Quite a task in many ways Keith, and if you want to take the whole floor up then you'll have to cut right along a joist on either side of the room.
Once one board is up, you'll probably be able to save most of the T&G's but of course each board may be held down with fairly heavy clasp nails - with the rectangular head - and they don't come up without a fight!
John

 

[JohnD]

I don't think I've seen T&G in Victorian houses, only square-edged.

Are you sure?

On the bright side, the main advantage of T&G floors is that it blocks draughts, which is the main advantage of insulating under them (heat loss by conduction is rather low, through a wooden floor).

 

[vinn]

OP,
Dont. Dont do what you propose. There are many difficulties that you would run into.
And by your post you dont seem to have a joinery clue - & why should you when its not your work?

Its certainly doable -we've often lifted T&G floors or parts of floors - but you would need experienced conscientious professionals.

Having a 24" crawl space is perfectly adequate for fixing insulation from underneath the floor - roll out some polythene sheeting on the soil, and slide about on it.

You would have quite a task, indeed, Keith if you followed the weird "advice" to "cut right along a joist on either side of the room" - the poster seems to have less idea than yourself.

Its essential when lifting a single T&G board or a whole floor to know how the floor has been nailed down - face nailed or tongue nailed?


T&G boards were first machine manufactured in the 1830's.
Square edge boards are the more uncommon.

 

[Burnerman]

I'll try to qualify what I've said......
The house in question that I worked on had floor to ceiling cupboards at one end - very expensive - and a partition wall at the other. Therefore it wasn't possible to remove the floorboards completely. Hence my comment about cutting along the joists. The end result was very satisfactory, but I used new floorboards, of course.
The floor had to be replaced because of the numerous butchering attempts to lift it courtesy of two rewires and the installation of central heating pipes - none of which seemed to share the same excavation through the floorboards.
A 24" crawl space is reduced by the depth of the joists, obviously enough, not to mention the sleeper walls, cables, pipes and sticking out nails which would make sliding around underneath pretty difficult and unpleasant.
Personally I'd forget about your proposal Keith, and go for thick carpets if that's acceptable to you.
John

 

[vinn]

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/forum-rules-general-info.19448/

 

[Burnerman]

So sad, Vinn, Ree, Dann or whoever that you feel the need to attack anyone who would like to give an opinion. The list is long and distinguished but I won't name anyone......that wouldn't be fair.
No interest I'm sure but I have had considerable experience ( for a thicko engineer/ teacher) in the house restoration business as I live in two, when it suits me and have been responsible for two more.
As I see things forum wise: Criticism is fine, constructive criticism is even better but ridicule and contempt of anyone is something I just wouldn't contemplate.

 

[vinn]

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/forum-rules-general-info.19448/

 

[duotwr]

Hooray I thought - 7 replies - there will be some useful stuff in there...

Honestly - what is the point of arguing with people on internet forums - get a life: https://xkcd.com/386/

I'm going to do some further investigations - I think the space underneath will be insufficient for access, but I would like to check out the ventilation of the sub-floor anyway given I think a historic extension might have messed with this a bit. If anything useful emerges from my efforts then I'll come back to report.

Keith

 

[vinn]

OP,
Perhaps you "honestly" dont realise that the first two lines of your last post are a continuation of an argument?
And perhaps you've not been taught in life that its common courtesy to thank or acknowledge when you've been given advice?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I don't think I've seen T&G in Victorian houses, only square-edged.

Are you sure?

Match planers (with side heads) were being manufactured as early as the 1830s, although not really widely available until the 1880s, so it is possible. The place I'm working on at present was built between about 1863 and 1887 and there is a mixture of both types with the T&G mainly being in the newer (1887) parts. My own house (1881) has T&G pitch pine floor boards, so somebody in this area must have had the machinery.......

Personally, if the boards turned out to be T&G (a sample plank could have a section cut out to test) I'd have to reconsider my approach - in my experience old floorboards tend to be very brittle, are often fixed down using cut clasp nails and therefore crack and break with alarming ease.

 

[endecotp]

Two feet! That should be plenty! I've only got 90mm!

Semi-seriously: Join your local caving club; meet them in a pub, buy drinks and them set them a challenge! Or, got any children?

 

[iwilson16]

Hi Keith,

I've just lifted two whole rooms of T&G floorboards in my 100 year old Edinburgh flat. It's not that difficult once you get started.

First of all you will need to take the skirting boards off. In my rooms, they originally laid the floor starting at the window and working back to the door, so the nails are through the tongues, which are on the door side (if you see what I mean). You need to start lifting in the reverse order that they were laid. Once you have the first board up, then you should be able to prise gently at each nail point. What I found is that it was best to only prise all the nail points for a particular board up by a few millimetres, then go over them all again and prise by a few more. At some point the whole board will just pop up.

I was able to lift the whole floor will virtually no damage. One thing to be wary of .... if the property has an original partition then the floorboards might run underneath that. That's what I found, hence why I lifted 2 rooms worth of boards (after removing the partition).

If you look at some of my posts here you will see some photos.

Also check out the Renovation. Couples posts on YouTube, where they lifted boards to fit insulation.

Ian

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I was able to lift the whole floor will virtually no damage. One thing to be wary of .... if the property has an original partition then the floorboards might run underneath that. That's what I found, hence why I lifted 2 rooms worth of boards (after removing the partition).

Congratulations, but you neglected to say what type of nails you were dealing with (wrought, cut clasp, round, French, etc) and the species of tihe timbers you were dealing with (pitch pine, yellow pine, parana, etc), thickness, method of nailing, etc. Wroughts and cut clasps which are rotted through exposure to damp can almost weld themselves into place. There's also the little isue of patch repairs done over the years by plumbers and sparkies to contend with. My own (trade) experiences point to your single experience as being the exception as opposed to the rule but fair pay to you for pointing out the need to get very, very slowly - the same advice is also good for skirting removal (something every "soft strip" demo team I have ever encountered has singularly failed to understand - even when issued written instructions)

 

[vinn]

jwilson16,
Well done, and I agree with the drift of your post that its no big deal to lift whole T&G floors, even for a first time doing it DIY'er, just so long as its done slowly, and with thoughtful care.
And well done for having first class tools for the job

Once the first board is up, no matter how or with what the floor is nailed, the rest will flow.
A little vibration with a hammer will often offer the opening chink to get a prising tool in or, as we do, to use a reciprocating saw or a multi tool to cut the first glimpse of a nail.

Sometimes its necessary to remove the first tongue with a circular saw, esp. for patch work, but with the skirtings off its not necessary.

A couple of points:
always mark the boards (& sketch a rough map) before lifting, & stack them, de-nailed, in a logical order for re-fitting.
If you dont then you will end up having to cut a lot of boards.
Always de-nail immediately the board is up.