Load cable to cooker plastered in?

[Albumen]

Can it be?

The electrician doing my kitchen wants to install the cooker control units (one for hob, one for oven including 13amp socket for built in microwave) inside cupboards. He says it'll look bad if it's on the tiles.

I know what he means, I think. Does the cable from CCU to oven have to be free? Can it not be in conduit behind tiles?

Also, is it possible/permissible to take the plug off the end of the microwave and connect it to a switched FCU, and, similarly, plaster the load cable in too?

I've tried to search, but it seems inside cupboards may be permissible, but not best practice. 'Easily accessible' it the operative phrase. The one for the oven/microwave in particular would be at the back of a very tall housing.

I'd prefer to go for both the spirit and the letter of regs - 'The switch for this electrical device is the big red one on the wall next to it'

Thanks.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The electrician doing my kitchen wants to install the cooker control units (one for hob, one for oven including 13amp socket for built in microwave) inside cupboards. He says it'll look bad if it's on the tiles.

Is that because he is insufficiently skilled to get them straight?

Why on earth would they look bad on tiles?

Ask him if he is happy that cupboards are suitable things for fixing electrical accessories to, and if he considers that being inside cupboards complies with the regulations for ready accessibility for operation.

Does the cable from CCU to oven have to be free?

Of course it doesn't.

Can it not be in conduit behind tiles?

Doesn't have to be in conduit. The usual approach is to use a cooker outlet plate on the wall behind the cooker.

Also, is it possible/permissible to take the plug off the end of the microwave and connect it to a switched FCU, and, similarly, plaster the load cable in too?

Arguably such a carp idea as to contravene the regulation requiring good workmanship by competent persons.

Where did you find this "electrician"?

I suggest you put him back there and get one who actually knows what he is doing.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. Well, he's in the NICEIC, Part P and will issue completion certificates, he says. Came reccomended.

I think he's maybe partly wanting to do this an easy way for him. But the kitchen is a complete shell at the moment, and is going to be fully replastered, so theres no problem about fitting in with

When we were talking about it 'looking bad' I think he was talking about the trailing 13 amp lead for the microwave.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well, he's in the NICEIC, Part P and will issue completion certificates, he says.

All he needs for any of that is a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of his work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment. None of which really makes him an electrician. Crucially, he needed zero real experience, and it's quite possible that he has never done anything like the work you want him to do before.

Came reccomended.

By whom?

What work did he do for them?

When we were talking about it 'looking bad' I think he was talking about the trailing 13 amp lead for the microwave.

It's as if he's never heard of flex outlets.

 

[Albumen]

I've told him I'll find another electrician to continue the work.

 

[ericmark]

I would say a plug which contains a fuse has to be in free air to remove the heat so a 13A socket should never be installed where it will not get free air.

OK maybe an exception where the appliance it powers has fan assisted cooling which will cool the plug as may be the case with built in oven but even then I would prefer to be able to see the plug so if there is a problem one can see there a problem before there is a failure. Using a FCU to power a 15 amp socket for oven so it can be removed for maintenance to my mind better than hidden 13A plug which has a fuse so will get hot.

Cables also produce heat but not to the extent of Fuse or MCB and to me any thing containing a fuse or MCB should be in free air.

 

[securespark]

"Why on earth would they look bad on tiles?"

Perhaps you've got the guy wrong, Ban.

Maybe, just maybe, he's not thinking about getting them straight, but about the overall look.

Maybe he's thinking if they could be elsewhere, the tiling (and kitchen) would look less cluttered and cleaner as a result.

Maybe you should consider other options before defaulting to cynic!!

 

[securespark]

I would say a plug which contains a fuse has to be in free air to remove the heat so a 13A socket should never be installed where it will not get free air.

Are you saying sockets should not go in cupboards?

What about sockets fitted in the wall behind washing machines, dishwashers, fridges, etcetera?

 

[Albumen]

As you can see, I've told him I'll find another electrician to continue the work.

In terms of it 'looking bad' I'd misunderstood him. I thought he meant that it would look bad because there would be visible cables coming from the CCU. Turns out not. The cables (at least for the oven and hob) would be hidden. He just thought it would look bad because there would be visible switches.

He kept on repeating 'I don't know why you would want to do that'. It was a bit surreal really. Apart from not understanding the simple relationship that though the customer isn't always right, he is always paying the money, he just didn't get that I wanted an important control to be visible and accessible. I don't drink tea, but I know some people really like it. Different tastes.

Anyway, I've started a different thread to discuss how to move forward with this:

//www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/connecting-hob-oven-microwave-isolators-etc.371582/#2832210

Thanks for you help folks.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Well, he's in the NICEIC, Part P and will issue completion certificates, he says.

All he needs for any of that is a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of his work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment.

He might not have any of that if he's covered by a business's registration.

 

[ericmark]

I would say a plug which contains a fuse has to be in free air to remove the heat so a 13A socket should never be installed where it will not get free air.

Are you saying sockets should not go in cupboards?

What about sockets fitted in the wall behind washing machines, dishwashers, fridges, etcetera?

Most washing machines and dishwasher have gap below and above with some sort of fan which will circulate air and because there is a reasonable amount of space behind then could be considered as being in free air anyway. The fridge is very low usage and again unless the condenser can cool in free air it would not work. The heat from an oven does mean although free air the ambient temperature is high which can cause a problem.

The idea of consumer unit under the stairs is OK where there are items like a vacuum cleaner stored which does not really impede the flow of air but use the area to store blankets and then there is a problem. Same with boxing in vents top and bottom OK but with no vents then asking for problems.

When a fuse blows it reaches a temperature able to melt metal and well before that point it must be getting hot. OK we try to contain that heat inside the cartridge to some extent but for the design temperature gradient to be maintained the outside temperature must also be controlled.

With a FCU the way the whole unit is mounted in the wall does give many paths for the heat to dissipate but since the plastic finger guards were included in the plug design the ability to transfer the plug heat into the socket has been reduced so free air is more important now.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Perhaps you've got the guy wrong, Ban.

Maybe, just maybe, he's not thinking about getting them straight, but about the overall look.

Maybe he's thinking if they could be elsewhere, the tiling (and kitchen) would look less cluttered and cleaner as a result.

Maybe you should consider other options before defaulting to cynic!!

Maybe I should consider that trying to hide away the switches and sockets in a kitchen so that you can't see any of them is a design for a room so unworkable as to be utterly mad.

If I want to plug in my mixer, my blender, my food processor, my kettle, my toaster, my grill etc I don't want to have to grub around in cupboards to do that.

If I want to turn my lights on and off I don't want to have to open cupboards first.

 

[Albumen]

Well said Ban. A kitchen is a working room. It's ridiculous that having switches accessible looks messy.

Next time I take my car to the garage don't expect to see any visible spanners. Having tools on display would look really messy.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

//search.diynot.com/forum_sear...hor=ban-all-sheds&search=Search+Forum&stype=0

 

[Albumen]

Ah, I see you and I are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I like the 'the missus wants the minimalist look' comment.

My kitchen's very minimalist at the moment. No sink, cooker, fridge or freezer. And not much in the way of ceiling or plaster. Very minimalist. I should get it on the telly.