26 counties since around 1923.
Mains switch in Consumer Unit is only Single Pole
- Thread starter andyr123
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26 counties since around 1923.
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No. That is the Free State you are referring to - not the Irish Republic. Also it wasn't 1923.
You really are a space cadet.
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Did you mean Dublin Creek, Tasmania, which is full of water... not Guiness.
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Bernard, I am shocked, shocked............... Guinness
D
Deleted member 231978
To get back to your original point, Irish wiring regs are similar to but have some substantially differences and this is one of them.
The normal setup in the Republic of Ireland is:
<Incoming ESB Mains>===<ESB Fuse>===<ESB Meter>===<ESB Isolation Switch & Bonding point to neutral since 1990s> (Demarkation point) === <Consumer Main Switch SP> === <Consumer Main Fuse or Master Breaker> ==== <Final Circuits>
Majority of installations are TN-C-S termed 'Neutralised Supply" in Ireland. Equipotential bonding is required for pipework. This is the preferred approach.
A small % of supplies use TT earthing, in which case there is a further RCD on the supply side at the meter.
TN-S is (AFAIK) not used in Ireland at all.
....
Other big difference is older Irish installations use German type Diazed/Neozed screw in cartridge fuses and not UK re-wirable or plug-in types - these were never used in Ireland.
Most installations also tend to use radials (usually 20A) rather than rings and RCDs were adopted for socket circuits much earlier than the UK.
....
Normal sockets are BS1363 [translated as IS401 sockets and IS411 plugs - but identical spec to BS1363]
'Schuko' CEE 7 was used in the past in Ireland and is still permitted and defined in IS 180 : 1997
However, you would struggle to find any remaining installations. It was common place until the late 60s. You'll only ever really encounter it as a convenience socket for tourists in some hotel rooms.
(It cannot be used on rings without being connected via a fused spur)
BS 546 - only 5amp version is permitted for switch-controlled lighting and is also defined in IS 180.
The normal setup in the Republic of Ireland is:
<Incoming ESB Mains>===<ESB Fuse>===<ESB Meter>===<ESB Isolation Switch & Bonding point to neutral since 1990s> (Demarkation point) === <Consumer Main Switch SP> === <Consumer Main Fuse or Master Breaker> ==== <Final Circuits>
Majority of installations are TN-C-S termed 'Neutralised Supply" in Ireland. Equipotential bonding is required for pipework. This is the preferred approach.
A small % of supplies use TT earthing, in which case there is a further RCD on the supply side at the meter.
TN-S is (AFAIK) not used in Ireland at all.
....
Other big difference is older Irish installations use German type Diazed/Neozed screw in cartridge fuses and not UK re-wirable or plug-in types - these were never used in Ireland.
Most installations also tend to use radials (usually 20A) rather than rings and RCDs were adopted for socket circuits much earlier than the UK.
....
Normal sockets are BS1363 [translated as IS401 sockets and IS411 plugs - but identical spec to BS1363]
'Schuko' CEE 7 was used in the past in Ireland and is still permitted and defined in IS 180 : 1997
However, you would struggle to find any remaining installations. It was common place until the late 60s. You'll only ever really encounter it as a convenience socket for tourists in some hotel rooms.
(It cannot be used on rings without being connected via a fused spur)
BS 546 - only 5amp version is permitted for switch-controlled lighting and is also defined in IS 180.
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Thanks for that, although most of that was lost on me
- are you bit of an insomniac? , only I see you posted at around 2.48am
D
Deleted member 231978
I wasn’t in GMT+1 timezone when I was posting.
Basically just beware of two things in Ireland:
Wiring rules are a bit different to the UK and make sure you’re aware of how the two systems do things as they’re both amongst the safest in the world when wired to code
Also bear in mind that you CANNOT install new circuits yourself in Ireland anymore. It’s illegal to carry out works that involve adding or changing anything in the switch board / consumer unit. They’re classified as “restricted electrical works” and must be carried out by a registered electrical contractor who will provide a completion certificate. There is no exemption for the owner or occupier or the property - so DIY work on the consumer unit is effectively illegal.
.....
Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).
Example of a prosecution :
http://www.thejournal.ie/attic-conversion-electrical-work-jail-sentence-2600354-Feb2016/
Basically just beware of two things in Ireland:
Wiring rules are a bit different to the UK and make sure you’re aware of how the two systems do things as they’re both amongst the safest in the world when wired to code
Also bear in mind that you CANNOT install new circuits yourself in Ireland anymore. It’s illegal to carry out works that involve adding or changing anything in the switch board / consumer unit. They’re classified as “restricted electrical works” and must be carried out by a registered electrical contractor who will provide a completion certificate. There is no exemption for the owner or occupier or the property - so DIY work on the consumer unit is effectively illegal.
.....
Restricted Electrical Works; this involves restricting the carrying out and certification of all Controlled Electrical Works in a domestic setting to RECs with no legal exemption for the Owner or Occupier.
As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical work remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works (see document CER/13/147 for definition of minor electrical works).
Example of a prosecution :
http://www.thejournal.ie/attic-conversion-electrical-work-jail-sentence-2600354-Feb2016/
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How about you James yourself - pushing the regulations to one side do you yourself think its safe to have a single pole or double pole isolating switch in the CU?
Also the irish regs of RCD on the socket circuits but no RCD on the lighting circuits? - i'd hate the idea of maybe a touching a wet lightswitch or lightswitch with wet hands and not have an RCD protecting it. And the regs of a pullcord ceiling light switch required in the UK but wall switches used here for bathroom lights
I still think there is a way to go, I know why they have now have not put lights and sockets through the one RCD or ELCB now like they used to (with if sockets tripped the RCD and the lights go off as well) and I can see why they split circuits now in the CU but why dont they just have 2 RCD's in it, one protecting the sockets and one protecting the lighting circuit (with most people having outdoor lighting these days it surely would protect that as well from damp should there be an imbalance between live and neutral or if someone touches it) without an RCD on the lighting circuit someone could be replacing a bulb (yes I know they should have turned off at the CU or the MCB for the lighting circuit first) but if the bulb does break exposing the live wires at least they would have some protection if an RCD is fitted on the lighting circuit.
D
Deleted member 231978
Ireland's had mandatory RCDs on sockets since 1980. Originally they were quite expensive devices, so they tended to only want to use one on an installation.
RCDs need to sit on the live and neutral and older lighting wiring did not tend to care that much about how the neutrals were arranged. So, you could find it quite difficult to RCD-protect individual circuits. At best you might be able to put an RCD across all the lights.
The UK only adopted RCDs as a mandatory 2008, 28 years later than Ireland.
UK homes prior wired before 2008 may have no RCD protection on anything other than perhaps the electric shower (and even some of those didn't have one as it wasn't necessarily required on older installations).
In the current Irish regs which date from 2008, there is a requirement for RCD protection in the bathroom on lighting circuits.
I would suspect this will be extended to all circuits in the next upgrades of the regs.
I have seen the stats for accidents in Ireland however and there are so few residential electrical accidents causing death that they are nearly statistically insignificant. It's an extremely unlikely way to go. Where people get electrocuted in Ireland tends to involve contact with overhead lines, accidents in construction etc and even then it's a very small number of deaths compared to almost any other risky activity.
Check out www.etci.ie for all the information.
Your bathroom would typically have a 10A RCBO supplying it to cover lighting, fans and shaver sockets, heated mirrors etc.
There's also nothing to stop you exceeding the regulations by asking an registered electrical contractor to fit more RCD / RCBOs on all final circuits.
However, you can't legally do it yourself.
As for the isolation switching:
On a TN-C-S supply single poll is absolutely fine.
On TT earthing double-pole is necessary.
RCDs need to sit on the live and neutral and older lighting wiring did not tend to care that much about how the neutrals were arranged. So, you could find it quite difficult to RCD-protect individual circuits. At best you might be able to put an RCD across all the lights.
The UK only adopted RCDs as a mandatory 2008, 28 years later than Ireland.
UK homes prior wired before 2008 may have no RCD protection on anything other than perhaps the electric shower (and even some of those didn't have one as it wasn't necessarily required on older installations).
In the current Irish regs which date from 2008, there is a requirement for RCD protection in the bathroom on lighting circuits.
I would suspect this will be extended to all circuits in the next upgrades of the regs.
I have seen the stats for accidents in Ireland however and there are so few residential electrical accidents causing death that they are nearly statistically insignificant. It's an extremely unlikely way to go. Where people get electrocuted in Ireland tends to involve contact with overhead lines, accidents in construction etc and even then it's a very small number of deaths compared to almost any other risky activity.
Check out www.etci.ie for all the information.
Your bathroom would typically have a 10A RCBO supplying it to cover lighting, fans and shaver sockets, heated mirrors etc.
There's also nothing to stop you exceeding the regulations by asking an registered electrical contractor to fit more RCD / RCBOs on all final circuits.
However, you can't legally do it yourself.
As for the isolation switching:
On a TN-C-S supply single poll is absolutely fine.
On TT earthing double-pole is necessary.
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This buck who got 6 months imprisonment (3 for carrying out the work, 3 for posing as a registered electrician) is interesting. Reading the news article about it sounds like no-one actually got electrocuted or killed , so if it was the 'potential' that someone 'could' have got shocked or killed is a bit steep , when did we turn into locking up people because of 'potential risk' unless his work was really really shoddy with live wires and no protection of MCB's and RCD's in the Consumer Unit. - its like a plumber putting in a central heating boiler and a high pressure water safety valve not operating (have heard of some failing) well then that becomes 'potentially' dangerous and 'could' kill the inhabitants of the house ... but the plumber is not going to get locked up for that (unless he skimped on another vent up to the header tank etc and/or didnt put in a safety electrical thermostat to cut off the boiler when it reached over temp also)
I can understand how he got 3 years for posing as a qualified electrician though and receiving payment/doing work for public without being qualified.
I can understand how he got 3 years for posing as a qualified electrician though and receiving payment/doing work for public without being qualified.
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I moved into Irish cottage / 'do'er upper' in 1991 in Ireland and we had to get an electrician in to install and wire up the consumer unit before ESB would connect our house with electricity. The Electrician fitted a CU with just a Double pole mains switch , about 8 mcb's but no ELCB (Earth Leakage Breaker) - (it would have been ELCB in them days wouldnt it have been? - were RCD's even used in consumer units then? I know the portable RCD's were available then for plugging into sockets and running your electric lawnmower etc off them) so thats surprising that Ireland had used RCD's since 1980. -
D
Deleted member 231978
30mA RCD protection is a long standing regulatory requirement on any socket <20amps (so that means : 13amp UK rectangular pin normal sockets or the very rarely found 16amp continental style side earthed sockets, or CEEform industrial or outdoor sockets.)
If you'd no RCD on the sockets in anything from 1980 onwards, your installation was not complaint with Irish writing regulations.
It would be common enough to see 1980s boards with Diazed (bottle type) fuses and an RCD.
There should be a main fuse on the board too.
I'm not old enough to remember how inspection worked in 1991, but that board doesn't sound like it complied with the regulations that were in force at that stage.
A DP switch and no RCDs sounds more like 1990s UK installations as RCD protection came in there in 2008.
Are you sure that the contractor was actually qualified here?
There was a lot more of a trust system that just assumed people would comply with the regs in both the Irish and British systems until relatively recently. Both countries were quite late to heavily regulate residential wiring.
I've seen ELCB written on boards in Ireland from the 1970s and 80s, but when you look at the diagram on the device, it's actually an older design of 30mA RCD. A lot of the older ones had a little lever on them, rather than a switch.
Older electricians just continued to use the term "ELCB" as a colloquial term for RCD. That originally referred to a voltage operated decide that picked up a current flowing on the earth.
They were primarily used as a fire prevention device on TT supplies and been used in a very long time. You'd usually associate them with 1960s or older wiring.
All I could really advise is that you get a REC to review the installation and bring it up to code.
If you'd no RCD on the sockets in anything from 1980 onwards, your installation was not complaint with Irish writing regulations.
It would be common enough to see 1980s boards with Diazed (bottle type) fuses and an RCD.
There should be a main fuse on the board too.
I'm not old enough to remember how inspection worked in 1991, but that board doesn't sound like it complied with the regulations that were in force at that stage.
A DP switch and no RCDs sounds more like 1990s UK installations as RCD protection came in there in 2008.
Are you sure that the contractor was actually qualified here?
There was a lot more of a trust system that just assumed people would comply with the regs in both the Irish and British systems until relatively recently. Both countries were quite late to heavily regulate residential wiring.
I've seen ELCB written on boards in Ireland from the 1970s and 80s, but when you look at the diagram on the device, it's actually an older design of 30mA RCD. A lot of the older ones had a little lever on them, rather than a switch.
Older electricians just continued to use the term "ELCB" as a colloquial term for RCD. That originally referred to a voltage operated decide that picked up a current flowing on the earth.
They were primarily used as a fire prevention device on TT supplies and been used in a very long time. You'd usually associate them with 1960s or older wiring.
All I could really advise is that you get a REC to review the installation and bring it up to code.
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Strangely in the house we are in at the moment it is a mixture of TN-C-S plus TT because one day on the lawn I found a green earth box - the house we are in now was built/wired in 2007
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