Mains water pipe leaking and I can't turn off stock cock--help!

[Londoner2]

so we don't actually have an internal stop cock... only the one just outside the front door. i'm considering getting a stopcock installed just inside the front door, with a mat over a removable section of the subfloor to provide access to it

i'm with Thames Water and they do have a scheme but they require you to book an approved plumber to replace the lead piping inside the house, then they will break up the pavement etc to upgrade the pipe outside (it's literally less than a metre from my front door)

i've got some quotes of around 1k to replace the lead pipe and install the stopcock

so that's what i was doing when i must have inadvertenly knocked the old lead pipe to cause the leak! it was my original plan to clear it all out but i'm not sure what the point is? i've removed it around the perimeter and dwarf walls to promote airflow but didn't think removing all of it in the middle areas would make much difference?

1k?? I had mine replaced in 2019 during building works for £500, they had to use a mole and finally connected 25mm mdpe and joined up to Thames water stop cock in pavement, that was in London as well, got teh company name from Thames water website.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

install a stop cock (as well as a "check valve and drain off" but i don't know what that is)

You already appear to have an internal stop cock, in one of your earlier photos, near the left-hand end of the red line?

The check valve, is a one-way valve, it is to prevent water back flowing from your internal plumbing, into the mains.

The drain off, would then allow your internal pipework to be drained, should any work need to be done, on your internal pipework, in the future.

 

[cdbe]

What do you have between the main and the external stoptap, ie the communication pipe? This is the bit they'll replace FOC. If it's been done (as the stop tap chamber looks pretty modern) you can replace the supply pipe (external tap to internal tap) yourself. You could probably tunnel under your door threshold.

 

[terryplumb]

Only an approved contractor can make the connection to the water suppliers stopcock / water meter.
Op ,did you get the leak sorted today ?

 

[sonaldo]

1k?? I had mine replaced in 2019 during building works for £500, they had to use a mole and finally connected 25mm mdpe and joined up to Thames water stop cock in pavement, that was in London as well, got teh company name from Thames water website.

Sounds promising. Do you have a name?

 

[sonaldo]

You already appear to have an internal stop cock, in one of your earlier photos, near the left-hand end of the red line?

The check valve, is a one-way valve, it is to prevent water back flowing from your internal plumbing, into the mains.

The drain off, would then allow your internal pipework to be drained, should any work need to be done, on your internal pipework, in the future.

ah yes there what looks like a tap which I suppose is the internal stopcock but it's not accessible and i can't seem to turn it!

 

[sonaldo]

Only an approved contractor can make the connection to the water suppliers stopcock / water meter.
Op ,did you get the leak sorted today ?

so my understanding is that Thames Water are responsible for the bit from my door to the stopcock, but inside the house it's my responsibility. i can't see how a plumber could access the pipe outside my house under the pavement?

the plumber tried to fix it with 4 clamps but he didn't have the right size lead lock apparently and no suppliers open at 6pm on a sunday. it's stopped 90% of the leak but still dripping

i've got someone coming tues morning for a different job but will ask him to do a more permanent fix

long term i need to use Thames Water lead pipe replacement scheme but that requires use of 'water safe' approved plumber or TW has to inspect plumber's work (which sounds time consuming)

 

[terryplumb]

The water supplier is usually only responsible for pipework up to and including their external stopcock ( which often is also a water meter), anything after that is the property owners responsibility.

 

[sonaldo]

The water supplier is usually only responsible for pipework up to and including their external stopcock ( which often is also a water meter), anything after that is the property owners responsibility.

Thanks. What I’m struggling to understand is how anyone could access the bit of pipe from my front door to the outside stop cock without digging up the pavement?

Or can you upgrade pipe to an outside stopcock without having to do that

The hole where the outside stopcock is is tiny—I’ve no idea how you’d work with that?

 

[Andy165]

After getting approval from your water company. You run the mdpe pipe to the boundary of your property leaving enough length sticking up for the approved contractors to dig up the pavement and connect. Mdpe end correct fitting to seal it. The mdpe has to be laid at the correct depth outside usually 750cm to 1250cm to prevent freezing , and sleeved where it enters your property. Approved contractors can self certify. Others have to have it inspected by the water company to see correct standards are adhered to. You are not allowed to dig up the pavement unless you are an Approved Contractor adhering to Council Standards. Publc Utilities Street Works Act etc The Contractors usually have a dig team who get stuck in and get the outside connection done in about two hours in a normal setting. But if your on a busy street or major pedestrian area, more organising and time needed,

 

[thomp1983]

If it was my property I'd remove those 6 smaller pavers from the footpath and dig down to the existing pipework, if it's at the correct depth then I'd run my new mdpe pipework in and leave enough spare to reach the meter.

If it isn't then I'd contact Thames water and tell them there original install isn't at the correct depth and ask if they are happy for the new pipe to be laid at whatever depth it is.

Get the new pipework ran to wherever you want your new internal stopcock and tell Thames water your ready to go, also tell them their external valve doesn't switch off completely and ask them to replace it at the same time.

They'll then likely tell you that as you haven't used an approved plumber if there is an issue preventing them completing their works when they arrive you'll be billed for the callout, provided you've used the correct pipe at the correct depth and your new internal stopcock is ready to go there shouldn't be an issue and the tw guy will just connect the mdpe up, they may refit the paving for you or not.

Just make sure you cover the hole and clearly indicate part of the pavement has been lifted and your unlikely to have any issues from the council unless your neighbours really don't like you and make a fuss, it should only be open 2 days if you can get a date from tw for their part

 

[cdbe]

I've just had a Google, and (although I probably shouldn't be) I'm surprised that they don't replace lead communication pipes when they fit water meters - I suppose it's an expense their poor shareholders don't want.

In the OP's case, the requirements of the LRP schemes are fairly straightforward. I'm not a plumber but have done 3 or 4. There should be detailed guidance on the website. I think that would require digging down 750mm at the threshold and installing insulated and sleeved mdpe pipe from there to the new internal stop tap (usually in the kitchen). Thames will then dig outside the door, "find" your mdpe and connect it to the external meter/stoptap and replace the communication pipe (the bit from water main to meter) and make good. Inspection is a formality if you follow the guidance to the letter.

This is one of mine - door end with 1.5m of capped mdpe coming out of the sleeve (110mm pipe) ready for the utility to connect to outside, kitchen end - mdpe to first potable water outlet with stoptap and drain cock.

Obvious the old lead can remain in use until they swap over to the new pipe.

 

[JohnD]

I did one myself in the Thames Water area. I notified them in advance and they inspected my trench and pipe before I filled it in. I think he was only looking at the trench depth. I had a pit next to the pavement.

 

[Andy165]

The "Mole Machine" man did a main round my way. One of the neighbours complained to the council. Council investigated and sent their own reinstatement contractors around to " make good" the pavement to Council Standards . Billed him £700. Be very careful if you are going to involve the pavement in any way.

 

[sonaldo]

Thanks all. What I'm struggling with is that the footpath outside my door is a public pavement. My boundary effectively ends at my front door as I have no front garden/path to speak of.

I could dig a 750mm+ trench inside my property up to my front door but I couldn't reach the outside stop valve from there because from my front door to the OSV is public pavement...

i guess i could employ a moling company to do the bit from my door to the OSV?

i was under the impression anything outside my boundary is Thames Water's responsibility, so assumed they would continue the pipe from under my front door to the OSV