Modulating Gas Valve

[JaysonH]

Good Afternoon All

Bit of an odd request but any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm trying to compile a list of Modulating Gas Valve manufacturers.
The kind you find in most combi boilers, Modulating gas furnaces etc etc

In your experiences of these areas would anyone be able to help ?
The obvious ones I have so far are, Honeywell, SIT, Robert Shaw, Dungs and White Rodgers.

Anyone seen any other makes ?

Thanks

Jayson

 

[Gasguru]

Prettle

 

[Agile]

Are you really in the UK or in the US ?

Could you share the nature of your interest in such an odd idea?

Tony

 

[JaysonH]

Yes, I'm based in the UK. Derby.

I'm working on an electronics project which requires a Modulating Gas Valve. Problem is the companies I have named sell the Gas Valve WITH their own electronics board, hence the reluctance to sell the Modulating Gas Valve in any volume to a "potential" competitor.

Just wondered if anyone had come across other modulating gas valve manufacturers in their experience.

Thanks

Jayson

 

[Agile]

Thats not the case for volume sales!

Most manufacturers are happy to sell their valves and most boiler makers dont use the gas valve makers PCBs.

Can you describe the application in more detail as I suspect there may be aspects you have overlooked.

Tony

 

[JaysonH]

Maybe I haven't explained properly Tony.
For example in a combi boiler, made by lets say Baxi, they have a Honeywell OR SIT modulating gas valve. The control board PCB is also made by Honeywell OR SIT. There are no applications were a Honeywell valve is being driven by a competitors board. Same applies to SIT, Whites etc etc..
If I want to manufacture and sell combi boiler control boards as a package with a modulating gas valve, Honeywell, SIT, Dungs etc won't sell me the valve in volume ie 20,000 to 100,000 units per year.
Why would they ? They'd lose out on the electronics. It would enable me to go gunning for all the companies who will only deal with me if I can supply the electronics/valve as a package.
You'd be amazed at how many companies that is.

 

[giblets]

Jayson, Honeywell, SIT, et all, do not make Baxi's (or whoever's) control boards. The boards are designed by the boiler maker and they then arrange manufacture. They obviously design/make the boards to suit the operating parameters of whatever gas valve they are specing.

Why not have a chat with Honeywell's technical dept and explain to them why you would want to buy 20,000 units. I think you will find that they will fall over themselves to sell 'em to you. Providing, of course, your application is safe and doable.

 

[Agile]

I can only think of one maker which uses the gas valve makers control PCB and a few others which use just the ignition full sequence control.

Can you give further details? The quantities you are talking about are way in excess of the market levels if you are thinking of designing a new unknown boiler.

There are at least two manufacturers I can think of who are selling less than 20,000 units p.a. although they have both been selling in the UK for over 10 years!

I dont think any single model sells anything like 100,000 units in a year apart from Vaillant!

Tony

 

[Gasguru]

The posting is very odd.

There is no viable market in manufacturing pcb's to modulate gas valves anymore.

All modern boilers are modulated mechanically by the fan and/or venturi pressure. The two safety valves are either on or off.

Is this a project to produce aftermarket replacement boards - if so its been tried before and is likely to prrove an illegal practice. Certainly no qualified rgi is advised to fit them.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I have no idea what Jayson is really looking for.. But it would appear to be a fruitless search...

Can you be a little more forth coming jayson? I doubt you have any commercial worries....

 

[ChrisR]

Jayson some boilers can use a Honey OR a SIT valve, and there's a link on the pcb to select.
It ain't hard, either a variable voltage or pulses determine the modulation. The ignition modules control a load of other functions in addition.
SIT give a lot of info on their website, though it can be hard to find.

 

[JaysonH]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I currently work for an electronics design and manufacturing company who already supply circa 100,000 boards into the worldwide boiler industry.

One thing I can categorically state is that currently the majority of Baxi's boiler control boards are designed AND manufactured by Honeywell or inconjuction with Honeywell.
There are others like Pektron who work in a similar way.
That is 100% a given. I cross paths with Baxi or their products on an almost daily basis.
The modulating valves which go with Honeywells baords are manufactured by Honeywell themselves in the Netherlands. This is their own valve manufacturing facility.

Honeywell use a sales strategy of, buy our electronics and we'll sell the matching valve at cost..or as near as dammit. This has been confirmed by numerous boiler manufactuers.

Honeywell will not sell us the valve. We have been declined on numerous occasions (so I leave it six months and ask again etc etc)...

SIT, Dungs etc work almost the same way.

As for no call for modulating valves, i do not work in a technical area BUT i can assure you that there are significant sales volumes out there and the numbers are growing. Recently we quoted for 300,000 units in Italy alone, and then there's the chinese market which is only just coming round to modulating gas valves. The volumes are cranking up and we need a competitively priced modulating gas valve.

Hence the post.

I do not want to waste anyones time, I just thought that this kind of forum is where you find enthusiastic people who are opening up boilers on a regular basis and you may have come across other modulating gas valve suppliers who I may have missed.

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

 

[croydoncorgi]

Have you contacted Kromshroeder? (although they DO make both valves AND PCBs!)

Also, I'd have thought with the way the bulk of the boiler market is headed, with Zero Pressure governors and tacho-controlled variable-speed fans on premix burners, the demand for modulating valves as such was going to shrink dramatically......?

I also hear that to comply with predicted new emission standards, boiler PCBs will need to also interface to a Lamda sensor based on the flame-sense electrode to control gas mix (and therefore emissions) even more precisely than can be achieved with zero-pressure technology.

 

[Agile]

The Lamda sensor is being presented as a solution to enable the boiler to automatically adapt to different gas characteristics as new gas supply sources are used to combat the shortages in the UK.

I am still not understanding exactly what the OP is trying to achieve. Quantities of 100,ooo units is a large volume per annum even for a manufacturer.

The only assumption is that he is trying to sell a combination of Honeywell valve and his firms PCB to existing boiler makers. What advantage can he offer the boiler firms over what they are currently offered by Honeywell etc.

Looks like we are going to get Chinses gas valves and his PCB soon. Lets hope we find out soon so that we can boycott those makes of boiler. Lots of repair work though!

Tony

 

[JaysonH]

Nice deduction Tony.

This is a regular scenario for us :

We quote for a new Boiler Control. We are up against lets say Honeywell.
Our price is better for the electronics board (and statistically more reliable..which happens to be true..substantially).
We can't provide the valve though. Honeywell can.
Honeywell offer the valve at cost IF the customer purchases the board as a package.
We can't supply the valve, so the end customer would have to purchase our board and buy the valve from Honeywell. Honeywell screw them on the price of the valve but remind them of the board + valve deal.


We need a valve.