Multiple lights on 1 circuit - circuit diagram

I too am new to the forum,i have had a computer since the internet opened up for public use, but i joined the forum yesterday and posted a message in the wrong place.Just because anyone makes a mistake it doesn't mean they are illiterate,it means they are Human.
I joined the forum to ask some questions about replacing our consumer unit.Now i am not bothering to ask anything.Why, because of the arrogant replies from some members.
I am a fully qualified mechanic (Cars mainly)I take it that none of you pro's have ever worked on your own Car or any vehicle for that matter,you take it to the correct dealership ?.If you have worked on your own car what makes you competent to do that?If you have changed a wheel i take it that you have used a Torque wrench,to the correct torque?I take it that you have the wheel allignment checked by a qualified mech possibly every 6 months.If you have worked on the BRAKES,how do you know if you have fitted the right grade of pads,what is the disc runout.What lube did you use on the pads and calipers? If you fitted new wheel bearings at any time,what grease did you use in the wheel bearings?
Anyone can be elitist, it takes a special person to be helpfull and tactfull.
 
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I am a fully qualified mechanic (Cars mainly)I take it that none of you pro's have ever worked on your own Car or any vehicle for that matter,you take it to the correct dealership ?.If you have worked on your own car what makes you competent to do that.If you have changed a wheel i take it that you have used a Torque wrench,to the correct torque.I take it that you have the wheel allignment checked by a qualified mech possibly every 6 months.If you have worked on the BRAKES,how do you know if you have fitted the right grade of pads,what is the disc runout,what grease did you use in the wheel bearings.
I have and do work on my own car. I have done for forty five years so may know a little bit.

Without wishing to be disparaging to your trade I would say most of the workers are fitters as opposed to mechanics as very little is repaired but merely replaced.

Ironically, the electrics and electronics are, nowadays, the areas which are almost impossible to DIY without expensive hardware and software.

With regard to your questions, I would say all of the answers to them would be readily accessible on the web so there is no point specifically answering them.
However, I think the 'attitude' to which you are referring is not related to similar questions as "Which grease do I need for wheel bearings?" but more akin to people asking "Where do the brake pads go?"

Also, of course, repairing cars has not been made notifiable to the Local Authority if a registered mechanic is not used - YET.
 
I absolutely agree that mechanics these days are more fitters than mechanics.I personally am a mechanic in the true sense of the word, having done a 5 year apprenticeship and a years improver, as well as the first year before becoming an apprentice, being a form of cheap labour.But you think being a qualified Electrician means more than being a mechanic?.If that is so, then i am sorry to have to tell you that you do not know what you are talking about.
you work on a vehicle once in a while and that means it's OK for you to work on it without training.I too can find out anything on the internet that i want to know about domestic electricity.Apart from not having an encyclopedic knowledge about the electrical regs,i do have a firm understanding of electrics as that is part of a mechanics knowledge.The rest i have taken the time and trouble to learn for myself.But due to the regs i cannot self certify anything.
But please remember one thing,i have seen some work carried out by so called electricians,and i am not impressed.The same can be said of some work i have seen on motor vehicles.In my humble opinion no one should be able to work on a motor vehicle unless they are certified as being able to..But this happens in many trades.
 
But you think being a qualified Electrician means more than being a mechanic?
I did not say that.
The discussion is about advising novices and the attitude.

I too can find out anything on the internet that i want to know about domestic electricity.
I was referring to the questions posed by you.
You can find out anything that is a straight answer to a straight question, i.e. "What sort of grease?" but not "My car has stopped, what is wrong with it?"

Apart from not having an encyclopedic knowledge about the electrical regs,
Do you at least have 'the manual'?

i do have a firm understanding of electrics as that is part of a mechanics knowledge.The rest i have taken the time and trouble to learn for myself.But due to the regs i cannot self certify anything.
It's not the regs., it's the law.

But please remember one thing,i have seen some work carried out by so called electricians,and i am not impressed.
I quite agree but that is the state of the country today. I blame Thatcher.

The same can be said of some work i have seen on motor vehicles.
Yes, garages do not have the highest degree of trust from the people.

In my humble opinion no one should be able to work on a motor vehicle unless they are certified as being able to..But this happens in many trades.
All trades. What you and a lot of electricians would like to see will not happen.


Reverting to your original complaint about the attitude of the replies.
Some posters are rude. Some are helpful. All have seen all the questions before.
The fact that people are asking means they do not know how to do it and if a few curt replies upset them it should still not deter them if they are serious about learning how to do it.

Changing a consumer unit is not really a job for a DIYer.
You will disagree but it is not merely the physical changing of one part for another.
There are many tests to ensure it will be safe in the event of a fault using equipment that people just do not have.
That everything works does not mean it is safe.
Electricity cannot be seen and so has to be tested. It is the law.

I cannot work on my car if I do not have the tools so why is it acceptable to expect help to do electrical work without the tools and test equipment
or, rather, being told that.
 
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My question was not going to be "HOW" to do it,i know "how" to do it.But fear not, i will not be bothering to ask anything.Yes i do have the MANUAL.I am also in the fortunate position of having the tools and the test equipment.
Not sure how Thatcher is to blame for a novice being able to work on the Brakes and steering of a modern Tractor unit pulling 40 tons.or any vehicle if it comes to that.
With the best will in the world, i know what is going to happen when an electrician comes to change our CU.Having had one quote !.We will end up having to have the Bungalow rewired,and all this just because i want to fit a new Kitchen,and put the Kitchen on it's own circuits.Yes the kitchen is on the same ring as the rest of the Bungalow,(except for the extension).I didn't build the Bungalow that's how it was built in 1984.
I have no doubt that you will respond in detail AGAIN.But my initial comment still stands,the arrogance of replies.
If anyone on this forum doesn't think a novice should work on electrics why reply with some smart, arrogant answer? Picking fault with everything the OP asks.Just remind them of the legal requirements.Or better still don't respond at all.
 
If you've got the know how, the tools and the test equipment, then why have you got an electrician coming round to do the job for you?
 
I haven't got any Electrician coming round as yet.I meant to say "if an Electrician came to fit our CU" But i suppose that is utimately what will have to happen,as i am not allowed to fit it am i.Believe me i would, if i didn't have to have the required Certification.
 
No - I didn't see that at the top of the post, as I said, I'M NEW TO THIS FORUM, NOT SURE WHERE THINGS ARE LISTED - not sure if you understand that?
I understand that you are new.

What I don't understand is why being new means you can't read.


If it's painful, it'll be painful for me, what's it to you?
Just trying to be helpful - you've said that you're going to have lighting 5 times as bright as you need for the room because you don't want it lit by just 1 light, and I wondered if you had thought how that might feel.


If you like the idea of 1 spotlight in the middle of the room then you do that, DON'T tell me what does and doesn't look good in your opinion, because in all honesty, no one else cares what you think, especially me!
Where have I said anything about what does or does not look good?

And if you don't want people to comment on what you are doing don't come here and tell us about it - you do not have the right to circumscribe our replies.


If you don’t want to help, go do something else, don’t reply with arrogant and condescending answers!
I helped you by pointing out the link to the Wiki, and I may have helped you by alerting you to the downside of lighting being 5 times as bright as is needed.

Arrogant and condescending?

If you are going to get bent out of shape because you don't get what you think is the right level of deference and replies which you think have the right scope then I suggest you go away.

I'm new - meaning I don't know where everything is in this forum. How many times do you go to a forum and read each and everything line, by line, by line, by line, by line?????

I can't read - so that's not condescending then ????? You obviously don'thave a very good grasp of english if you don't think your posts are arrogant and condescending !

Yes, I've thought it all through, the thing is, you didn't answer the actual question but went off on one trying to prove how much more you seem to know than me - I call that arrogant. Again, you obviously don'thave a very good grasp of english if you don't think your posts are arrogant and condescending !

"Where have I said anything about what does or does not look good? "

You didn't have to - your CONDESCENDING tone said it all for you !!!!! - Are you getting the idea yet? You obviously don'thave a very good grasp of english if you don't think your posts are arrogant and condescending !


"And if you don't want people to comment on what you are doing don't come here and tell us about it - you do not have the right to circumscribe our replies. "

So you can give it loads but can't take it then? If you don't want your comments circumscribed, then keep them to yourself. Or at least don't bother ever replying to any of my posts seen as you've never really said anything helpful at all, just been ARROGANT and CONDESCENDING !

In fact, tell me how you helped in this post? Other than apparently pointing out that 5 lights were too many (not bothering to ask how many watts each damn bulb is of course and so NOT knowing if the room would be too bright or not anyway) ?????????????

All I've read in any of your comments is how everyone is wrong and you're right. I even read a few posts where someone asks a simple question and you can't answer it - a simple as hell answer which even I (a non electrician) could answer - so how good an electrical professional does that make you ?

"If you are going to get bent out of shape because you don't get what you think is the right level of deference and replies which you think have the right scope then I suggest you go away."

Rightttttttttttt..... so because I come on to a web FORUM to ask a question, everyone should be allowed to treat me like I'm stupid? and also, I'm stupid to think that asking a question on a web FORUM will answer a question of mine?????? God you're thick aren't you !

It's 2012 you D!** - people use the inetrnet and web Forums to ask questions. At the same time it doesn't give others the right to be ARROGANT and CONDESCENDING like YOU !!!!!

You're the problem on this site, not anyone else, you're so damn thick you can't even see it!
 
Well!! i think HANSPUCH just about summed that up correctly.Strange isn't it that two newcomers to the forum find exactly the same attitude.But then if you look at some of the other threads on the (Electrical) forum, you will see a few similar comments from posters responding to the answers they have been given.WHY ?,It's a DIY forum.If a FEW of you,and it is only a few, feel non Electricians shouldn't be asking questions on here,why not leave this forum to the DIYers and just go to one of the Trade only forums,then that will just leave the Tradesmen who don't mind answering some questions.I suppose though, that the responders who answer in a condescending manner,(as i said, few in number) think you are probably saving us from ourselves.
 
I'm new - meaning I don't know where everything is in this forum. How many times do you go to a forum and read each and everything line, by line, by line, by line, by line?????
Dear god.

You don't have to "know" where it is.

Right at the top of the forum - the very first topic, you'll see this:

t2565752.jpg



I can't read - so that's not condescending then ????? You obviously don'thave a very good grasp of english if you don't think your posts are arrogant and condescending !
I think the problem here is (and please note I say this not because I have an exaggerated opinion of my own importance, or because I want to show that I am acting graciously towards someone I consider my inferior) that you don't know what "arrogant and condescending" mean.

What appears to be going on is that you simply cannot stand anybody questioning what you plan to so, or suggesting that there might be a problem with it, and when they do you lash out with accusations of arrogance and condescension.


Yes, I've thought it all through, the thing is, you didn't answer the actual question
It had already been answered.


but went off on one trying to prove how much more you seem to know than me - I call that arrogant.
I call that ignorance of what the word "arrogant" means. If on the 5th August Usain Bolt proves that he is better than everybody else will that make him arrogant?

Being better than someone else, even showing that you are better, is not arrogance.

But in any event I wasn't trying to prove that I knew more about anything than you - I was just trying to get you to think about the implications of having so much lighting in your room. Do you go through life accusing everybody who asks you "are you sure?" or "have you thought about that" of being arrogant, or condescending?


"Where have I said anything about what does or does not look good? "

You didn't have to - your CONDESCENDING tone said it all for you !!!!!
Oh - I see - you looked at these words:

You're putting in 5 lights to replace 1?

Does that not say anything to you about how good the new ones are at doing the job you want them to do, i.e. lighting up your lounge?
And immediately decided to imagine a "tone" and immediately decide to accuse me of being arrogant and condescending.


- Are you getting the idea yet?
The idea I'm getting is that you decide to imbue my words with something you don't like and then think it's OK to attack me because you don't like what you've imagined.


"And if you don't want people to comment on what you are doing don't come here and tell us about it - you do not have the right to circumscribe our replies. "

So you can give it loads but can't take it then?
Take what?

Take someone arguing rationally about something I've written where they have a different opinion? Yes.

Take someone inventing embellishments to something I've written and then accusing me of being arrogant and condescending because of what they've invented? No.


If you don't want your comments circumscribed, then keep them to yourself.
You've still got this the wrong way around.

Do you really think that this site should work on the basis that the scope of responses people give is what the questioner has decided in his own mind it should be?

Lest they be accused of arrogance and condescension?


In fact, tell me how you helped in this post?
I tried to help by asking you to think.

Apparently you don't like to do that.


Other than apparently pointing out that 5 lights were too many (not bothering to ask how many watts each damn bulb is of course and so NOT knowing if the room would be too bright or not anyway) ?????????????
You said you were using 5 of them because 1 wouldn't look good, not because 1 wouldn't be bright enough:

The reason for installing 5 lights is not because they are bad at lighting up a room, but because I personally think that 1 spotlight in the middle of a room would look pretty cr4p ! And so using 5 of them would make the room look better !


All I've read in any of your comments is how everyone is wrong and you're right.
Well - you've obviously not read enough of them then, but it would be pretty odd for anybody to post something which they knew was wrong.


I even read a few posts where someone asks a simple question and you can't answer it - a simple as hell answer which even I (a non electrician) could answer
And you can show examples of that, can you?


Rightttttttttttt..... so because I come on to a web FORUM to ask a question, everyone should be allowed to treat me like I'm stupid?
Who treated you as if you were stupid?

2 out of the first 3 replies you got contained these lines:
Stickies are at the top for a reason!!

Look at the wiring diagrams for lighting Sticky.
Like most questions, the answer is already provided on the WIKI. But here's a link //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting:rose[/QUOTE]
And then there was this exchange:
..couldn't find a diagram for my type of circuit. If you could post a link, that'd be most helpful.
Hanspuch.

I already gave you the link to the wiring.
But for some reason you didn't decide that there was a "tone" you didn't like and then accuse securespark or Taylortwocities of arrogance or condescension.

Why was that, I wonder?


A lounge is not an ideal location for spot lights.
for some reason it wasn't to him that you directed
DON'T tell me what does and doesn't look good in your opinion, because in all honesty, no one else cares what you think, especially me!

If you don’t want to help, go do something else, don’t reply with arrogant and condescending answers!


God you're thick aren't you !

It's 2012 you D!**
.
.
.
You're the problem on this site, not anyone else, you're so damn thick you can't even see it!
And you have the gall to complain about what I've said to you when what you're complaining about is all in your mind anyway.

Care to show us where I've been anything like as abusive to you as you have to me?
 
Well!! i think HANSPUCH just about summed that up correctly.
Then you are hard of thinking.


Strange isn't it that two newcomers to the forum find exactly the same attitude.
No - it's quote common for people to come here with preconceived ideas about what they should be told and then get annoyed when they don't get it. Not unusual for them to become abusive in the process.


If a FEW of you,and it is only a few, feel non Electricians shouldn't be asking questions on here,why not leave this forum to the DIYers and just go to one of the Trade only forums,
Can you show us where that's been said? Or is that just something you've imagined on the basis of a reply telling someone that they shouldn't be doing the work they want to do?

Is it hard for you to grasp the notion that maybe they are told that because it's the truth, not because the poster doesn't think they should be asking here in the first place?
 
HARD OF THINKING ? because i agree with another persons post !!!and not yours.So that's not offensive then ?

Try this one then TACT, A SKILL IN AVOIDING GIVING OFFENCE.

No one said that a correct/plausible and TACTFUL answer was offensive,or that posters can't accept a TACKTFUL sensible answer.

Lastly, I stated that "if a FEW of you "FEEL" that non Electricians shouldn't be asking questions".I didn't say it was listed here.

As for any more analysis of my posts by you.Save it for someone who gives a *&&%
 
HARD OF THINKING ? because i agree with another persons post !!!and not yours.So that's not offensive then ?
OK.

You are wrong.

You are incorrect.

You are mistaken.

You are in error.

Is that better?

Try this one then TACT, A SKILL IN AVOIDING GIVING OFFENCE.
So what was tactless about "You're putting in 5 lights to replace 1?

Does that not say anything to you about how good the new ones are at doing the job you want them to do, i.e. lighting up your lounge?
"?


Lastly, I stated that "if a FEW of you "FEEL" that non Electricians shouldn't be asking questions".I didn't say it was listed here.
And I asked you "Can you show us where that's been said?"

I didn't mean necessarily in this thread - feel free to widen your search to cover the whole forum, and show us a thread where an electrician has said that non-electricians shouldn't be asking questions. (Ones where a person has joined and immediately started saying things like that don't count - you'll see that they rapidly get told by everyone to go away.)


As for any more analysis of my posts by you.Save it for someone who gives a *&&%
Well you clearly do give a *&&% about what I wrote - if you didn't you wouldn't be complaining about it.
 
It's plainly obvious that you are a superior being who has the ability to be offensive,Arrogant and tactless in the extreme,WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT.Hence the reason for your DETAILED analysis of every post,in defence of your Arrogant replies,and indeed your continued Arrogance. So we will just accept that everyone else is wrong/incorrect/mistaken and in error, at least that seems to be the way you see it .
I have no doubt that we will be graced with yet another DETAILED analysis from you, as you obviously are determined to have the last word.But this is definitely the last one from me,and having worked in almost an all male enviroment since i left school until the day i retired,you are wrong, i really don't give a *&&%,but that doesn't mean i won't reply to an Arrogant .........
 
Please go away and remedy your ignorance of what the word "arrogant" means.

When you've grasped the fact that criticising someone is not arrogance, that telling them that they are wrong is not arrogance, that defending oneself against unjustifiable attacks is not arrogance, that asking for evidence to back up complaints about the forum is not arrogance, that encouraging others to think about what they are doing is not arrogance, then please return, and when you do please bring with you references to posts where someone has said that non-electricians shouldn't be asking questions.
 

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