Mystery grey wire in ceiling rose

[EFLImpudence]

Well, this is what we can be certain of:

If you can tell where the LIVE wire comes from or goes to, then we might deduce more.

Does it comes from the cable with the Black and Grey?
If not, which one does?

 

[katie6]

That looks like a pretty rough re-wire. Connections outside of an enclosure behind the switch, not compliant, and no brown or blue sleeving on the live/neutral cables. That black cable connected to the switch has a little too much copper on show for my liking too! I wonder what else they couldn't be bothered to do properly yet still got paid for a 'proper' job.

Yes, I agree, especially after finding a dangling cut wire behind the switch. I am obviously not a qualified electrician, but I do have a degree in electronic enginering so I can't help feeling I might do a better job of fixing this issue (with all of your kind help, of course!) than this particular group of electricians which I have strong doubts about! Plus, Mum and Dad are retired and can't afford to pay even more for someone else (I have a great electrician that I use for trickier jobs). Sadly my degree is from about 15 years ago and I didn't pursue a career in the industry so my knowledge is rusty at best and so I definitely appreciate everyone's advice!

 

[AndyPRK]

Well I think your good to do this.

but are you sure the light doesn’t need an earth

Thanks folks,

Below is a picture from behind the switch. This shows the grey wires, as you suspected 333rock333. The greys appear to be connected to two blues, from the photo, which would correlate with AndyPRK's suggestion that it could be neutral.

With this in mind, do you think I should do the following in the light?

• Connect Earths together (the light should not be earthed)
• Connect all browns together
• Connect grey to blue and and feed that into Neutral of light
• Connect black (switched live?) to Live of light.

Happy to take further advice if you recemmend further testing or have any questions!

Many thanks again

Katie

I mean. There are only so many things you can do with 2 cables!!!!
And you worked out the black is the switched live for light.
as we can now see at the switch

 

[AndyPRK]

Did any of the switches have a 2 way counter part ?
Eg that light that doesn’t work ?

 

[sparkwright]

On the 3 core and earth cable at the light I suspect the grey is neutral.
Black is switched live for the light.
Brown feeds the spots that don't work.

On the 2 core and earth cable at the light I suspect the blue is the neutral going to the spots.
Brown is switched live for the spots.

So the browns would go together in a separate connector block.

Blue and grey together to the neutral on the light.

Black switched live on the light.

Of course it all needs checking out first, by testing with the power completely OFF.

Do you have a multimeter, so you can safely do continuity tests with the power completely OFF?

 

[333rocky333]

Going forward the best way, may be to try and reinstate the Neutral to each set of lights, once done then concentrate on the Browns etc as there may well be two switch lines at that point.
The N does seem likely to be the grey wires according to the switch.
My concern is still why the spots dont work, i do not believe the 2c+E is the supply, but ratherv as Sparkwight says likely the L+N to the Spots, using Switchline 2, within the 3c+E with switch line 4 for the pendant, which at the switch is Brown


As EFLI said check which wires are grouped in the same sheath at the switch as we know thats right and will indicate what is Live, Neutral and each of the 4 total switch wires.
With the power off your multimeter can check continuity of the N and the Switchwires and confirm, use a spare length of wire or temporary touch one end to earth.

 

[katie6]

Sparkwright - your suggested connections look like the wiring I suggested earlier, which is reassuring as it looks like you've thought it through independently.

I like your idea to test for continuity (I do have a multimeter) and ELFI's suggestion to check what's in the same sheath. Thanks 333rocky333 for summarising and suggesting a long wire to help with continuity test and starting with the neutrals. Good advice.

I'm working tomorrow but will post back when I've had the opportunity to do all the testing. Thanks again to you all for kindly helping me and providing such informative posts. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Katie

 

[333rocky333]

Sparkwright - your suggested connections look like the wiring I suggested earlier, which is reassuring as it looks like you've thought it through independently.

I like your idea to test for continuity (I do have a multimeter) and ELFI's suggestion to check what's in the same sheath. Thanks 333rocky333 for summarising and suggesting a long wire to help with continuity test and starting with the neutrals. Good advice.

I'm working tomorrow but will post back when I've had the opportunity to do all the testing. Thanks again to you all for kindly helping me and providing such informative posts. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Katie

It does seem the same Katie, but I think what Andy and yourself was suggesting was to join the brown and Brown to send the Supply feed and Black and Grey to send the N down to the switch.
If that was the case all 4 switches would not work (see EFI amended version of your switch pic)

What Sparkwright and myself feel is that it is the reverse of that, the L and N are already at the switch and being sent up to the ceiling point and spots via the3C+E
This explains why 2 switches still work

Either way, it turns out the connections would be the same at the Ceiling point

With the power off , rather than a long wire, you can use the wago you have.
Power off, at the Ceiling light, part the wires except the earths, put one wire only, Ie Grey, in a wago with the earth, then put your meter on continuity, at the switch. probe between the Greys and the Earth, should read aprox Zero, part the Wago then should read Infinity.
Repeat for Brown and then Black.

I feel you will find with the 3c+E
Ceiling Grey goes to Connecter block in back of switch, no need to remove wires, to test from this connecter.
Ceiling Brown goes to Single Brown Output of spotlight Switch
Ceiling Black goes to Single black Output of pendant switch

The Input side of the 4 switches are the ones all linked together

As for the 2c+E
you will likely find that dont go to switch, but the spotlights, likely you will read continuity between its Brown and Blue, because the lamps are still in place, if they are 240v spots then lamps would need removal, if you wanted to confirm, though i dont feel thats needed.

 

[securespark]

So once the grey is connected to the other Neutrals behind the switch, the spots will work?

 

[AndyPRK]

Yea. What you say would make more sense.

 

[katie6]

We have progress! Not quite there yet but I feel the end is nigh! Dad has wired up the light as per sparkwright's suggestion. And all lights are switching on now. The only trouble is that they're not switching on in quite the right combination!

Switch 1 (from left to right):

• What is happening: turns on the ceiling rose AND the first set of downlights that were originally working
• What should be happening: only turn on ceiling rose

Switch 2

• What is happening: same as switch 1. Turns on the ceiling rose AND first set of downlights that were originally working
• What should be happening: only turn on first set of downlights

Switch 3

• Working correctly. Turns on second set of downlights which weren't previously working

Switch 4

• Working correctly. Turns on outside light

Do you know what the change should be to get switch 1 and 2.to work as intended?

Many thanks again,

Katie

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think this is what you should have:

To work as you say they are, the browns must be connected to the black somewhere - or obviously something is not as it seems.

 

[333rocky333]

Do you have a picture how he has connected it now

 

[katie6]

Thanks EFLI! 333Rocky333 - I have the latest picture.

The light is now wired as per the photo. The switches are all working independently (not necessarily in the order I mentioned above but Dad is happy with it). So it appears that it might be working (fingers crossed!)

The only thing I'd like him to check is what happens when he wires up the new light which is metal but has no earth (currently using bog standard ceiling rose). When he tried earlier he said the metal was live and the switch was buzzing even when off. I believe that the wiring pictured is not the set up he had when that happened. So hopefully he will wire it up as it is below and the case will not be live and the switch not buzzing.

I'll let you know tomorrow

Many thanks again for your continued help!

 

[333rocky333]

If just two of the switches are now wrong, then just swap the BROWN and BLACK that come out of the 3c cable at the lighting point
That will give you the back spots and the centre light switches swopped, you have not altered any other wires

So instead of
3c Brown to 2c Brown back spots and 3c Black to pendant

You would have
3c Black to 2c Brown back spots and 3c Brown to pendant
As you know his new light must have an Earth if needed, connected to that plastic Earth block G/Y