New ceiling light fitting - I have no earth!

[stevem999]

Hi folks, would really appreciate a bit of guidance. I have got a new light fitting from Ikea (I know, I know). On further inspection, it has L, N and E connections (it's metal). Having pulled down the old light fitting I only have a black neutral and a red live wire in the ceiling. Had a poke around through the hole and there is no earth knocking about and just the two wires disappear across the ceiling.

As the fitting has an Earth connection, assume this means it isn't double insulated so simply, can I use this light in any way without fitting an earth? (which really isn't a possibility right now)

Couple of bits of info which may or may not help:

1) The wires coming from the ceiling have an outer pale grey sheath, then an inner black or red sheath, with a pretty solid heavy gauge stranded cable inside that.

2) The light switch for the fitting does have an earth connected to it.

If the new fitting is a total no-no, what do I need to be looking for? Is it something low voltage, double-insulated, plastic, traditional ceiling pendant or something else?

Many thanks

 

[riveralt]

......
As the fitting has an Earth connection, assume this means it isn't double insulated so simply, can I use this light in any way without fitting an earth? (which really isn't a possibility right now)

No.

If the new fitting is a total no-no, what do I need to be looking for? Is it something low voltage, double-insulated, plastic, traditional ceiling pendant or something else?

There a lights specifically designed for your situation.
http://www.double-insulated-lighting.co.uk/?gclid=CIG549fi1K8CFeMLtAodpzNFcg
If there is no earth to the lighting circuits in your property then you really nead to remove all metal light fittings and replace them with plasic ones or have an earth installed by a professional.

 

[Luckyphil]

If theres an Earth wire at the Switch , there`s every chance there`s a JB in the Ceiling void , You need to do a check in the void , If the backplate of the Light Fitting is large , maybe cut out a bit of the Ceiling and have a looksee , if there is and you can get it out , check it and also check the Earth continuity before extending/fitting and Earth from the JB then fit the Light Fitting.

Lucky

PS - if you can`t acess the JB , You need to lift sme Carpets and do some searching ! Fella.

 

[stevem999]

Thanks for the info. It's what I feared sadly.

Suspect I'm going to have to go back to a simple plastic pendant/ceiling rose for now. The last spotlight fitting we had was plastic so just a L & N connection, but not much of that around now.

I'll take a look at that site you suggested.

 

[stevem999]

If theres an Earth wire at the Switch , there`s every chance there`s a JB in the Ceiling void , You need to do a check in the void , If the backplate of the Light Fitting is large , maybe cut out a bit of the Ceiling and have a looksee , if there is and you can get it out , check it and also check the Earth continuity before extending/fitting and Earth from the JB then fit the Light Fitting.

Thanks Phil, I have a sneaking suspicion that the earth at the back of the switch was installed at a later stage. I recall we bought the house from a builder who had taken it in part-ex and therefore tried to bring some of the wiring up to date before selling it on again. When we looked at the house they had clearly taken an angle grinder up and down all the walls to the light switches and run earth cables back somewhere (consumer unit?). I guess that means there isn't an earth in the ceiling but will try and take a look.

 

[stevem999]

Update - just found an earth cable tacked up on the side of the beam in the ceiling. Just couldn't see it from where I was looking up into the ceiling but stuck my phone camera up into the hole and took a few shots in different directions and there it was about a foot away!. It's been left with some insulation tape around the end so I guess I just need to check the earth continuity as Phil suggests. Question is how do I do that?

 

[riveralt]

Update - just found an earth cable tacked up on the side of the beam in the ceiling. Just couldn't see it from where I was looking up into the ceiling but stuck my phone camera up into the hole and took a few shots in different directions and there it was about a foot away!. It's been left with some insulation tape around the end so I guess I just need to check the earth continuity as Phil suggests. Question is how do I do that?

You will need a multi-meter to check earth continuity.
Have you checked the other ceiling roses that are on the same circuit as your 'problematic' one to see if they have an earth to them?

Back to checking for continuity.
You will need to turn the power off - go to the consumer unit (fuseboard) and open it - look for the circuit that controls this lighting circuit.
Take the live cable (red/brown) out of the fuse/MCB and stick it temporarily in the earth bar.
The back at the light set your mutltimeter to low ohms resisance then put the probes across the earth and the live and if there is continuity you will get a low ohm reading.
Then put everything back in its place in the consumer unit.
If you do get a low ohm reading you have continuity and you can use the earth in your 'Ikea' lamp - Warrington is such a pain to get to.

 

[Luckyphil]

Ideally you need a Length of Cable(Flying Lead) long enough to go from the Light Fitting to the Consumer Unit area , Here you "should" find an MET (Main Earth Terminal) , Its a Block where the Earths will all be connected ie Earth from Incoming Supply Cable , and Earth cables from the Gas & Water Services , Then you should connect your "Flying Lead" to the Earth in the Void and connect the other end to one Probe on a Multi Meter set to Resistance , and the other Probe to the MET , If it Zeros out its connected up ,

BUT sometimes there is no MET and all the Cables go straight into the Consumer Unit , I`m not too sure of you`ll be happy opening that up to do these test , Personally I would`nt advise it , So call a Local Sparkie in , explain what the Problem is , if all is connected up ok , he`d more than likely only charge in the region of £40-60 to check and put up your Light Fitting

Lucky

 

[Luckyphil]

Different Strokes for different Folks River

Lucky

 

[stevem999]

Ideally you need a Length of Cable(Flying Lead) long enough to go from the Light Fitting to the Consumer Unit area , Here you "should" find an MET (Main Earth Terminal) , Its a Block where the Earths will all be connected ie Earth from Incoming Supply Cable , and Earth cables from the Gas & Water Services , Then you should connect your "Flying Lead" to the Earth in the Void and connect the other end to one Probe on a Multi Meter set to Resistance , and the other Probe to the MET , If it Zeros out its connected up ,

BUT sometimes there is no MET and all the Cables go straight into the Consumer Unit , I`m not too sure of you`ll be happy opening that up to do these test , Personally I would`nt advise it , So call a Local Sparkie in , explain what the Problem is , if all is connected up ok , he`d more than likely only charge in the region of £40-60 to check and put up your Light Fitting

Lucky

Hi Phil/River,

Thanks for this advice. To be honest I kind of prefer the method Phil suggests (no offence intended River).

I think I can see the MET (looks like a large chunky piece of terminal block fixed to the board where the meters/fusebox are attached to, can see a couple of different earth cables running into it - that the right thing?).

I have a multimeter so that's no problem. So just a flying lead to try and find - is any sort of 'electrical' cable ok, even something like speaker wire or similar to make the link?

 

[Luckyphil]

An extension Lead will do the Trick , Just put one of your Probes into the Socket Earth , then the other probe onto the Earth of the Plug

Lucky

PS- Yes that sounds liked the MET (Pic would confirm it )

 

[stevem999]

Confused now!

I understood it that I connected a flying lead to the earth I found in the ceiling, then the other end to one probe of the meter, and the other probe to the MET.

But I don't understand where I can use an extension lead - do I need to connect that to the earth in the ceiling to make the link? Sorry if I'm being thick.

Sorry, pic attached, poor quality but hopefully you can see if that's the correct thing.

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• stevem999
• 27 Apr 2012
• 1

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[riveralt]

The problem with the flying lead method is you never have a flying lead when you need it
Steve - think of it this way.
The assumption is that the earth in the void you found is in/directly linked to the MET.
You need to provide a 'link' between it and the MET to form a loop and the probes go on the end of the earth and the MET.

If you use an extension lead on a roll say and you don't the adapter kit that we have then you will have to remove the plug at the the loft end and connect the earth in the void you found with the earth wire from the plug/extension cord.

At the other end of the extension lead by the MET - you need to connect the probes of your multi-meter (set to zero and low ohms) with one touching the MET and the other in the earth socket on the extension lead.
If you cannot touch the earth inside the extension lead then you will need either open a plug up and try and push it into the socket then us the earth as your other earth source or better still wire the plug up with a trailing wire and use the trailing wire earth as your earth source.
You should get a low ohm reading if you have continuity.
You can perhaps see why some of us sparks use the method I outlined above - but I can fully understand if you don't want to mess about inside the consumer unit.

 

[stevem999]

Ok understand that now. Can see how you use an extension lead (it was the bit about taking the plug off that I couldn't see). So, given that there is no power involved anywhere, will any piece of cable do to make the loop? I suspect I've got a few metres of something knocking about somewhere - does the earth cable inside an extension cable (for example) have some particular properties or do I literally need to make a conductive connection between the ceiling earth and the MET using any sort of electrical cable, whether sheathed as earth or not?

Yes, you were right, didn't fancy pulling the consumer unit apart - kind of scary.

 

[riveralt]

You can use any cable just to confirm continuity but if you are going to use speaker cable for example you might want to use both conductors together to give a better connection near to the ceiling lamp.
By the way I would connect the ones near the ceiling lamp together with a terminal block.